Al, thanks for the great tip.
I just talked to Bill Valavanis 5 minutes ago, and ordered the DVD you mentioned (also throwing in Danny Use's new DVD while at it).

My original premise, the one that tried to set up what I wanted to say was shot down by John and Joanie, but the idea that triggered all this remained the same.

Here is my theory.

(BTW, Joanie and Will hit it right on, Ralph did it indirectly, but nevertheless I agree with him also)

Here in L.A. there is a fairly large community of Japanese bonsai practitioners. I've been in their company and talked to them countless times. I don't remember even once that the issue of art vs. bonsai came up in any discussion. There was never a remark or discussion expanding on this issue. In addition, I don't recall any written source coming from Japan that deals with this issue as a controversy. Seemingly, there is no need for them to prove, emphasize, or debate the fact that bonsai is art. This is very unlike us, westerners, who constantly debate and argue about this, and compare bonsai to other artforms.

This lead me to believe that as Joanie so astutely put it, "the Japanese philosophy assumes art". It is inherent in their definition of bonsai. There is no need to make a separation between bonsai and art, and then try to prove that they are one. They simply don't separate them in the first place, so there is nothing to prove. .
I like the way Will put it : "art, perfection and discipline used to be a way of life" So much so, that it is redundant to about bonsai and art in the same sentence. The concept of bonsai already includes art as an inseparable part.

To me this is a humbling realization. Here we are, talking about how bonsai can and has to carve a legitimate place in the art world. And we think about this idea as revolutionary and original. When in fact, in Japan this is part of their belief for centuries. It's so old that they don't even talk about it.

John, wonderfully put.

You've posted your response while I was writing mine, so I am reading it now. I am glad that what I believe is very close to what you posted above.

Regards,
Attila

I just wanted to mention that I saw the DVD yesterday, and it was a humbling experience. I am humbled beyond words, but in a positive way. This film puts in perspective everythig I do with my bonsai. It gives me a frame of reference of what can I achive and how far do I have to go.

I have to say that this documentary did to me what a brutally honest critique does: it puts you back into reality. But it also gives you a chance to dream.

Anybody who is serious about bosai, has to see it. Once you did, it will be in the back of your mind as long as you live. It will affect everything you do from now and going forward.

Attila. I am glad you have seen this DVD. I too have found great inspiration in this piece and look at bonsai just a little different than I did a few years ago. For my own reasons I will not say what this movie has done for me. I do not wish to have it discussed since it is very personal. I hope there will be others that will see this and find a new meaning.

One cannot watch this movie and not feel moved in the way Shinji did.

BTW, as an aside. The companion piece that is a must have with this whole package is the magazine WABI. It is a magazine put out by Mr. Morimae, the gentleman that owns Ginza Morimae. A dept. store on the Ginza in Japan. It is used mostly for the selling of very high end Japanese art. For the most part, bonsai is sold there for tens of thousands of dollars. The gentleman throughout the movie that Shinji talks with as his personal friend is Morimae.

Bill V. and I are probably the only ones here that may have seen this magazine. Check with Bill about getting you a copy to look through. They sell for about 15.00 to 18.00 bucks with postage. This is the most inspirational magazine I have ever seen.

WABI = World Artistic Bonsai Information

Best regards, Al