I enjoyed reading Andy's article. As usual it develops a subject that's been batted around for some time and puts it into a clearer perspective.

As Andy has pointed out, many (most?) of us do not have the motivation or means to pursue formal bonsai study and attempt that 14-story building. To some degree that makes the topic outlined here near-miss at best for part of its audience. Being the operator of an online forum as well as an advocate of bonsai I will, of course, be interested in defending the medium and improving it where I can, but I want you to know I think we can improve it!

Andy's article has been an inspiration to me to consider ways in which we can increase the power of bonsaiTALK to provide more "meaningful" instruction, some of which I'll discuss at the end of this post.

I do want to make some comments about the content of the article. It is a big subject to chew on, but it seems to revolve around the subject of formal vs. informal instruction with a sideline on peer learning, so I'll start with that. The general tone of this post may come off as "We're not as bad as all that, you're exaggerating, but I think we can do better!"

PEER LEARNING

Sure, learning in a peer environment isn't ideal, but it isn't impossible either. In some ways it is potentially better than sitting down with a well-written book and thinking you are learning without bringing any of the knowledge into actual practice. Any form of peer study has similar downfalls. There are study groups for bonsai, and if you are getting bad peer feedback, for example, you might believe you're doing great when the work is actually quite mediocre. Or maybe the guy teaching you to wire simply doesn't know himself.

At a minimum you are exposing your work and getting feedback of some kind, which beats the pants off working in a vacuum. There is also the inspirational element of working within a group that can provide the motivation to get off your duff and do something when you see what others can accomplish in real time, day after day. No videotape or book is going to give you that.

JUST THE FACTS

There are also some "facts" that are presented in broad strokes without much development and other points of discussion that in some cases I found were skewed. I'll provide a few examples:

HOW MUCH IS ENOUGH?

Since most of us who grow bonsai are not full-time (nor even part-time) students at any sort of a bonsai academy, our bonsai learning opportunities are limited.

As related in the next paragraph, there are a wealth of other opportunities available. Individual study, books, videotapes, magazines, particularly Japanese Magazines, Exhibition catalogs, Study Groups, Club Lessons, workshops, online discussion groups, online magazines and e-books, bonsai schools, and of course the Guild (apprentice/master) relationship.

It would, for example be entirely possible to rewrite Andy's article, substituting "bonsai lessons" for online discussion groups and "Apprenticeship programs" for bonsai lessons and achieve an equally meaningful result. One can always extend the argument of the need for dedicated learning and accreditation to that ultimate conclusion.

For example: "Taking a week's worth of classes every three months with a bonsai professional is a poor substitute for living the lifestyle of the bonsai artist 24 hours a day..."

Not everyone can put his life on hold and study bonsai. Making more of a commitment than the monthly workshop and the trip to the bonsai shop is a reasonable real world compromise.

These venues are not ideal, but they are often readily available and the cost is quite low or nil.

"Are not ideal" is a setup for explanations to come, we hope. The minimal cost aspect, universal geographic accessibility and 24/7 availability of online learning attract many to the Internet. Reading the article, there is an anticipation that an ideal or at least more acceptable solution will be presented.

One wonders: Why are more individuals not unlocking the secrets of traditional, structured learning? Is it because of time, money, laziness, or have they really been deluded by their addiction to the lure and promise of online forums? hmmm. When those who invest cash and time in workshops come away disgruntled or underwhelmed, how can you convince them to make more of an investment?

That's a tough one.

Based on what I’ve read in online discussion and have heard from my friends at conventions, however, many of us are misjudging the instructional value of these venues. Many of us are mistakenly equating the tips and advice freely offered online and in workshops with real instruction. This is a mistake that can lead to unnecessary disappointment and cause us to level unwarranted criticism at those we believe to be teaching us.

I know what Andy means.

However, this paragraph dismisses the value of online forums with language like "advice" and "freely offered." The fact that the information was provided "freely" is of no consequence to its value, whatsoever. Is Andy's own e-book worth less because it is "freely offered?" I think not. The connotations of freely - "without charge," "informally," "with liberty," I don't know. Maybe there is a better word to use to capture the intent?

Describing this information, whether it be opinion, speculation or fact as "advice" slants the perspective further. It is entirely possible to present meaningful instruction online. We have had numerous examples, case histories, nursery tours, articles, how-to articles, competitions, moderated chats, gallery exhibitions and, yes, even editorials presented here.

[Online forums are great for community building, entertainment, swapping tips and advice, but just plain awful for effective teaching and learning.

We had an interesting contest last week that Al Keppler initiated, which to my knowledge was the first of its kind. It challenged forum members to review pictures of displays that had been presented at a regional convention and offer criticisms of the work. Thereafter the sage comments of a recognized Japanese bonsai master were revealed to all.

Hardly plain.

Months prior we had a styling competition where entrants provided before-and-after photographs of material they had designed. The community chose which they believed were the best examples and a recognized expert selected the winner and runner up and provided some criticism of the work. Two or three of the entrants provided detailed analysis of their styling activities and how they had accomplished the work.

"Advice?" Hardly. "Help?" No. Tips? Un-uh. "Just plain awful?" Hmm.

For those beginners that can't yet discriminate wheat from chaff, we began a process of codifying the information here into separate categories, and further developing it with the Best of bonsaiTALK.

Online chats provided discussion on principles of defoliation, collecting and display. You couldn't help but learn something unless you were asleep. And if you were asleep the chat logs were posted the next day.

We continue to have articles on technique, touching on everything from display methods, repotting, air layering, and tp restyling. Flash animations and CAD drawings gave some assistance in that most troublesome of all bonsai techniques - correctly applying wire. Occasionally someone comes on here with a badly wired tree, using the wrong wire, improper size. Something gets said.

Is it as good as firsthand instruction? Not by far, but I would not dismiss it as tips and advice, and its interactive capacity makes it superior to what can be accomplished in a book or videotape with no feedback at all.

Perhaps the printed book is "just plain awful" and the online discussion forum is "interactively awful?"

A Matter of Degrees

This is the paragraph in which we learn (or are advised ) how bonsai is so marvelously complex that we couldn't achieve basic competence without years of formal study... However, it gets a little weird after that

Bonsai, however, is not the kind of field of endeavor that usually results in a lucrative career. Therefore, it makes less sense to go to the effort and expense of a formal education in order to obtain a high degree of skill and understanding of bonsai art and science. Most of us are just hobbyists and do just fine with tips and advice, thank you very much. We generally have no need for much more.

Accepting this as true, what does it mean in the context of the entire editorial piece? That to many of us the thesis or the practical limitations of the online discussion forum heretofor amplified are irrelevant to most enthusiast readers? It's like the author picked up a bucket of cold water and doused himself or the audience. But why? It comes across to me as a bit condescendingly sarcastic. I don't know how it was intended, but it comes off that way.

To make this persuasive, I'd expect to really sell the thesis itself as significant and relevant to the audience at hand. If the audience perceives it as insignificant or not relevant, it doesn't really matter (to them) if it is accurate or well developed. If the audience perceives that the author is talking down at them for being content "with tips and advice." They will be offended.

IMHO, this is the part, Andy, that led to people "making things up" about what you intended. I don't think it's clear at all what you intend with this paragraph.

Anyway, back to fact checking:

Online discussion forums are the most easily accessed “learning” resources available to most bonsai enthusiasts

Close, but no cigar. Printed books remain the most easily accessed resources. As to the pervasiveness of the Internet, I live here in the heart of Silicon Valley and belong to Midori Bonsai Club, a club of some 100 members. Half are active. About 20 have email addresses (some of those aren't active). Besides myself, only one other member ever posts in the Midori Forum. There is a big population of individuals that are retired, have not and will never touch a computer. There are many who do have computers who haven't considered using them for learning, only the occasional email and whatnot.

Part of what makes an online forum a poor venue for bonsai instruction is the fact that most believe that such forums are meant to provide positive reinforcement only.

I'm sure the development of this thread and many others would give you cause to revisit this statement as "fact!" While we might offer a beginner some encouragement, we aren't about stroking egos here. I challenge you to do this. Take a photo of some cr@ppy mallsai and post it on IBC and post it here under an assumed name. Step back and watch which way the wind blows and whither the sparks fly. My suspicion is that you'll get trampled or ignored on IBC and here someone will give you a virtual, or a pat on the back and the suggestion you join a club, check the faq, get some instruction, or a purchase a book on basic technique.

Students need to know when they’re on the wrong track and they need to know when their efforts stink, and why, in order to learn. In other words, students who put forth a D or F effort need to be graded as such, rather than being given a B+ and encouraged so as not to hurt their feelings. That is a malevolent and irresponsible practice that destroys potential rather than builds it. But, giving an F grade to someone’s effort as exhibited in an online forum is a good way to get yourself criticized and/or ostracized by much of the community there.

There's a gallery of some 1200 trees here. Here begin the ones that are lowest rated so far
http://pictures.bonsaitalk.com/show...5&user=&stype=1
Go ahead and rate some more poorly. No one is going to ostracize you describe why and include some constructive information that will help the artist improve his work or the tree.

... it is unrealistic to expect to be taught in an online forum. Those who try quickly discover their folly.

I understand the intent, but this statement opposes the thesis, which was that "many of us are misjudging the instructional value of [online discussion forums and workshop] venues." They can't simultaneously discover their folly and continue to be deluded, can they?

And the mention of any sort of standard usually invites the ire of most forum participants anyway.
This fact begs example or clarification.

a. Furthermore, note that in a school or an effective teaching/learning environment that there are teachers and there are students. The distinctions are clear and inviolate.

b. "Online discussion forums have neither teachers nor students. Everyone is a teacher and everyone is a student.

As you've pointed out, the workshops, which typically have clearly defined teacher pupil relationships, don't work effectively in this regard, whether it is for lack of defined curricula, mistrust or simply not having enough time. Personally I think it is all three.

Consider, is it possible that by participation in a peer group that a hierarchy can develop, based on experience, education or demonstrated skill? I believe so. As an example have benefited from Walter Pall's numerous posts and observations on this forum so much that we created a forum dedicated to his "advice." Walter makes the first reply in resonse to posts in this forum. That distinction is clear and inviolate.

So what can we do? Can these readily available venues be turned into better teaching/learning environments? I’m not so sure that they can be, but I believe that we can work to improve how we use workshops and online media for bonsai instruction. Online means of communication and instruction will continue to evolve and there are as yet unexplored methods online.

I'm not ready to give up. I am just as certain that the online environment continues to improve as a teaching/learning environment. With the introduction of interactive Flash presentations, movies, FAQs and real time discussion, the online environment will soon offer many of the benefits of traditional classroom instruction with important side benefits of accessibility.

Maybe we can make an effort to try a more structured learning approach. Just brainstorming of course, but a dedicated group of individuals and a clear student/teacher relationship. There is no inherent reason why a discussion forum cannot have a leader or different leaders for different activities.

We need to modify our expectations and come to grips with the fact that a few workshops and a few hours of online discussion will not turn us into bonsai adepts.

We also have to come to grips with the fact that those who help us and offer advice in workshops and online forums are not there to “teach” us – they’d be foolish to try. So, we have to not expect them to jump through our hoops.

I believe there are a component of the discussion forums who seriously do wish to teach and an even greater number here who come to learn. Some post articles on work they've accomplished. Others discuss techniques they have used that have succeeded or failed, and ask intelligent questions or hypothesize why. They don't jump through hoops, but they do want to instruct and to inspire or to learn.

Perhaps with the right environment, their efforts can be even more effective. I'm proposing:

1) we begin some formalized workshop activity with student/teacher relationships and see what falls out. We'll try something a little different and rather than have a post with several peer suggestions we'll have some students post trees and agree to do what the instructor says with them.

AND/OR

2) We have some online class in say wiring technique. Where there will be a lecture of sorts, assignments, and grading!

Whatcha think? Any volunteers?

Boy that was a long way to get to the point of an on line class. I think that this would be an interesting venture for those that have good digital cameras and can provide multiple views of the starter material and step by step progress as the tree moves from raw stock to finished bonsai.

I still am of the opinion that like in every hobby or profession most of use need some good training in the fundimentals. Then it is strictly practice, practice, practice.

The story comes to mind of the young man in England who wanted to learn how to wire. He bought 10 junipers. Then read about wiring. Each day he wired a tree. After 10 days he unwired each. Then repeated the process. He didn't care if the trees died since the objective was to learn how to wire. He did this for 6 months I think. I do not remember his name but he shortly after this won the best young bonsai artist award in Europe.

I can see that repetition of wiring with attention to how it is done can really enhance one ability and speed in the most basic skill.

Do we have this type of commitment to learn? Maybe some do.

Are formal classes needed? For some, no. For some, yes. Each of us bring to this art form our own set of skills and eyes. But we all need to get the basics some how. Or as one person stated "the mechanics". From there we can explore and push the limits.

Lets give this on-line "class" a shot and see what happens.

Kind of a neat idea.

Richard

Matt I think that sounds like a cracking (english term meaning good) idea, regardless of the outcome it sounds like a lot of fun.

You could get everyone interested to say how long they have been doing bonsai, what they feel there skill level is, divide the lot them in two (those with more experience and skill than the other lot) and then draw names out of a hat to pair people off, obviously this would require the aqusition of raw, untrained stock or a problem tree by the student. It may also be a good challenge for the more experienced to see if they can teach.

Cheers Jonny.

Matt,

I appreciate your thoughtful response to my essay. You've missed the point on a couple of the sections you examined (more on that later), but I especially like how you took it as fodder for turning the gears in your head on how to bring better teaching/learning opportunities to the web. Surely there's room for that!

Your preoccupation with my phrase "freely offered..." is odd. Actually, that qualifier had nothing to do with the thrust of my point there. No need to get bent out of shape on that point. It describes a simple fact, but it could have easily been left out.

You went to great pains to defend the viability of online discussion forums and as-yet undefined methods of online teaching/learning, but your posits seem to ignore the central point - that it is the context in which the teaching/learning takes place that is at the heart of the problem...

A healthy and effective teaching/learning evironment is one where the teacher runs the show. The students have to trust the teacher and respond according to that trust - or they may find their way to the door and not return. Any situation where the student has to make a choice of which part of the instruction to accept and which to throw out is a worthless situation. The teacher offers the instruction - the student must accept it or leave.

Futher, the students must be subject to the standards demanded by the teacher. In a proper teaching/learning evironment, when I am corrected in a mistake today, I'd better damn sure not make that same mistake again. If I do, I must expect to be reprimanded. If I continue to make that mistake, I must expect to be asked to leave - fail the course or be held back for another year, lose my scholarship funds, etc... (in other words, I'm not doing my part as the student - learning and applying the instruction).

In an online forum, we are not beholden to our teacher(s). We may not reprimanded for not improving. We have no trust investment in the teacher to the degree that we are expected to take the teacher's instruction as gospel. We may not be asked to leave due to poor effort and application. An online forum is a mob-rules context (with some semblance of a moderator). It is a pure democracy to a large degree and there is no room for democracy in a teacher/student relationship. These are all characteristics of an ineffective teaching/learning environment.

You examine and comment as follows:
My words: Bonsai, however, is not the kind of field of endeavor that usually results in a lucrative career. Therefore, it makes less sense to go to the effort and expense of a formal education in order to obtain a high degree of skill and understanding of bonsai art and science. Most of us are just hobbyists and do just fine with tips and advice, thank you very much. We generally have no need for much more.

Your observations: "Accepting this as true, what does it mean in the context of the entire editorial piece? That to many of us the thesis or the practical limitations of the online discussion forum heretofor amplified are irrelevant to most enthusiast readers? It's like the author picked up a bucket of cold water and doused himself or the audience. But why? It comes across to me as a bit condescendingly sarcastic. I don't know how it was intended, but it comes off that way."

I can't understand why. However, this section was what I deem to be utterly needless - I hated to include it. The reason I included it in the piece was to cover my butt. If I had not, many here would have made the inaccurate and idiotic accusation that I am merely championing elitism in bonsai, because "I don't need to be a master! I'm just having fun! You say that if I'm not a master, I'm crap? Well that's stupid and so are you!" See, this would be an inaccurate characterization of my essay, but it would have happened anyway. Oh, wait! I did happen!" ;-) Yes, this was my way of making sure that readers understand that I recognize that most of us have no desire to become one of the world's top bonsai artists. The futher point that logically follows is that we must then not expect to acquire the skills possessed by the top artists from the only mildly effective learning opportunities we choose to pursue.

In the end, I'm glad that you're directing your thoughts toward ways to improve and build online teaching/learning opportunities. I hope, however, that in this process you keep in mind the inherent contextual problems presented by most online venues and then work to mitigate them. A program without firm standards - and consequences for not meeting those standards - is a poor program. I look forward to seeing what you can devise.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

2) "We have some online class in say wiring technique. Where there will be a lecture of sorts, assignments, and grading!"

This is an excellent idea. I'd be happiest if you began with the simple part (45 degree angle) in brief, and then ventured into planning the wiring of the tree, which direction to wire (e.g.,clockwise?) and its relation to planned branch movement, double-wiring vs heavier guage, crossing the front of the trunk (a no-no to Liporace), anchoring techniques, etc.

In short, all the stuff that hasn't stuck quite right in my past learning and experience.

Perhaps we could make dowel trees to practice our wiring on for this purpose.

That would be a class that I'd love to be a part of!

Hope no one thinks I am being a wise guy but I have just read this thread from beginning to end again. Really trying to soak it all up this time.
Come to the conclusion that we are getting a bit long on how to teach and a bit short on what to teach.
Am I missing something.
The teacher is the one that imparts the knowledge. The student is the one that receives it.
Many times during our lives we bounce between being one of these two people.
Sometimes, yes, even the internet can be a teacher. Sometimes a good one.
Mind you I would worry if my doctor learned his craft off the internet. Scary thought. But we are talking bonsai not medicine.
The problem with the internet is that anyone with a computer can post without a peer review.
But that gets a bit harder on a forum like this. Post something silly and you will soon find that there is in fact peer review. Big time.
Can one learn a lot from this forum. I say yes. The only problem is that you will learn it helter skelter. It all depends on what people are currently interested in posting.
It could I guess be structured. Start of with "my juniper is turning brown" and progress all the way to carving like that crazy Kamura fellow but then that would just be another book.
Or close to it.
This is a place to come and ask questions. More than likely you will get many answers. You will have to sort them out. You will have to think and that does lead to learning.
One good thing about this forum is that it is here 24/7. It is never closed.
A class done here I don't think could never get past the most basic of things in bonsai.
Just too many different climates and different trees to deal with. A good portion of the world is represented here and yes that does create problems.
But then what is wrong in having an online class on the very basic things. Would that not be a valuable thing.
It would be nice to have a beginning. With that beginning one would know some of the questions to ask the forum. That, I think, would work out nicely.
So just what exactly are the basic things. Those generic things that will always work no matter where the student lives.

Andy,

thinking about of the problem of misinterpretation you are wrestling with, I realized that the cause of your disppointment is what you expect from the reader of your essay.

Humans are emotional beings, and the response to an essay is ALLWAYS an emotional one. An essay is a work of art in its own right and as such it triggers all kinds of emotions. Each person has a different emotional response, conditioned among others by the image you project in them.

A bonsai can never be misinterpreted because it is a mirror of our own fantasy. It is what we make out of it. If we like it, it is because it triggers positive emotions in us.

It's the same with the essay. Your stance is an intellectual one while people respond to it emotionally (you know, it's like arguing with you wife). They are interpreting it with their feelings. And I think a good essay is supposed to do just that. To stir the readers' emotions.

After that, it takes on a life of its own. Trying to change people's feelings through logical reasoning is like trying to swim against the the undertoes of the Na Pali coast (I just came back from Hawaii).
We like to think that we are rational beings when in fact our emotions are the culprits behind everything we do or say.

So, let your essays live out their natural life without the worry of being misinterpreted. Once the genie is out of the bottle, it's greater than yourself.

Regards,
Attila

Thank you, Attila, for speaking my thoughts much better than I am able. Maybe when I was younger I could express things better than I can now. I know that I find myself fumbling for words and am seldom very satisfied with what I come up with now.

I definitely frequently overeact to much of what Andy says and I think it has to do with the very authoritarian tone that his messages frequently convey to me. I've never responded well to authority and did poorly, for the most part, in most formal educational settings. Yet, it is hard to argue that I did not build my professional career on an extremely rigorous and demanding intellectual discipline. Somehow, with virtually no formal training relevant to Computer Systems Development, I figured how to do it, even developing a modest reputation as something of an "expert", lecturing at many industry forums and even to IBM system engineers a time or two. If I could not carry the approach that I generally take to learning over into Bonsai, I doubt I would stay with it very long. And it is definitely not the "Instructor as God" model.

It is clear to me that Walter Pall and many other highly successful bonsai artists have been essentially self taught. Unless I am completely misconstruing what Andy is saying, Walter and others seem to me to demonstrate that that there are other paths to bonsai mastery than the one Andy is presenting. No doubt, there are many who might profit greatly by following the path that Andy lays out. I don't think that I'd be one of them.

I have not done what many have done by laying out quotes and then responding directly, line by line. Perhaps I am being too self indulgent in simply presenting the thoughts that occur to me after I read Andy's comments and those that follow. I prefer this method of discussion, however, and, in fact, would prefer not to present my thoughts as direct responses to the points made by others at all. I have enormous faith that in a free discussion, the best ideas will eventually prevail. Also, that they will prevail more quickly if everyone is treated with tact and courtesy. I have seen much ridicule of newcomers and bonsai enthusiasts of modest talents and the assertion that many of them are simply looking for "ego-stroking" and have no genuine desire to improve; that their biggest problems are complacency and self indulgence. I don't think this is true and I dislike seeing people treated as though it was.

A friend of mine several years ago had a comment he used to make that I liked alot: "all that an "expert" is, is an ordinary guy with a briefcase more than 50 miles from home". My thought, exactly.

Fred

Andy's essays are , I think, supposed to spark comments. Make people think. Cause changes.
I for one can't understand why he gets upset when they do.
If you write such stuff then why get upset when they cause people to comment. To think. And yes even expand on the article.
His ideas spark new ones. That is good. That is why he should keep writing them.
To put challenging words on paper and then get upset when they are seems to be a terrible waste of time.

Ron,

Your post is a good example of what I take exception to; criticism for and arguments against things that I have not said and things I have not done. I enjoy it when something I write sparks discussion, debate, futher extrapolation and in-depth examination. I do not, however, enjoy it when I get criticized for suggesting something that I have not suggested - when I get berated for making a point that I have not made. That is what gets me upset.

I agree, however, that it is a terrible waste of time to have to defend oneself from misapplied quotes and ridiculous mischaracterizations. But no, I do not get upset when my words garner response, comments, debate, thought or change. Again, please criticize me for what I do say and do do rather than what I have not said and have not done. Thanks much.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.andyrutledge.com
zone 8, Texas