I was going to make one reply to cover all of the misinterpretations and mischaracterizations of my post, but Al has enough to warrant his own reply...


"I think if I wanted to learn from say Walter Pall, and he had the desire to teach me, I could learn from him through the internet. Why not? It would definately not be as good as being there, but it sure is possible."

Of course it might be. If you read my conclusion you'd see that I allow for this possiblility. Your mistake was not recognizing that I did not say that it was impossible to learn online. Rather, I said that DISCUSSION FORUMS, due to how they are used, are poor places to seek instruction. Please read what I wrote instead of making things up.

"Do you propose that the only way bonsai should be practised in the world is after you have obtained the apropriate sheep skin in the chosen bonsai design. Your just not comparing apples and apples here."

Where on earth are you getting this fantasy fodder? My observations were that we must not mistake discussion forums and workshops for real instruction. I never made any observation about how bonsai should be practiced. Again, please read what I wrote instead of making things up.

"Finally, what your advocating here is to take the fun out of bonsai for a lot of people."

I've not taken the fun out of anything. I've not made any observations about what anyone should do or how they should do it. Rather I've observed that too many mistake tips and advice for instruction. Where are you getting your mischaracterizations from? Seriously, was it my piece you read or someone else's?

"Andy you are preaching to the choir here on the forum, but untill this stuff is on a menu at the local drive thru, most of this is just unattainable to the average Joe. So why make us feel like a bunch of sad sacks? "

I'm not making anyone feel like anything. If anyone has misread my post to the extent you have, it is not my fault and I'm sure that they'd be as far off the mark as you are. I suggest that you read what I wrote and not spend so much energy worrying about what you made up.

My posit is only this - tips and advice are not the same as formal instruction, yet many don't grasp the distinction (which results in unecessary disappointment and criticism). My point is nothing beyond this. The rest of my essay is there to support and explain this posit.

I'm sorry that this was not clear from your reading and I hope that this helps to clear things up. I can understand and sympathize with your misunderstanding my essay. I will not gladly take your misdirected criticisms, though. Criticize me for what I do say, for a change. Thanks.

Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

Matt,

Your riposte was interesting, but I believe that you, too, mistakenly read that I am criticizing how we practice bonsai. That is simply something you've made up. I couln't give a rat's pitute how someone practices bonsai or enjoys bonsai. Rather, I've said that we must no mistake tips and advice for instruction. If I had said that we must not mistake tips and advice for the right way to do bonsai I'd see your point.

I did not, however.

Fred,

The ways we get together to trade tips and advice is great. I have not criticized this. Again, I've merely said we should not mistake these tips and advice (and the forums from which they come) for instruction or good venues for instruction. I hope this clears things up.

Ralph,

Your points are valid. I noted as much when I observed:

"Bonsai, however, is not the kind of field of endeavor that usually results in a lucrative career. Therefore, it makes less sense to go to the effort and expense of a formal education in order to obtain a high degree of skill and understanding of bonsai art and science. Most of us are just hobbyists and do just fine with tips and advice, thank you very much. We generally have no need for much more."


In the end, I'm sorry that I miscommunicated so much, leaving so many with so many false impressions I would have thought I'd have needed an entirely different essay in order to convey. I'll work on my writing. I hope that many here work on their reading. It is fun to be criticized for what one writes. It is not fun to be misquoted and mischaracterized and criticized for junk one has not written. But I should have known. ;-)

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

Andy and others.
I am a relitive beginner at bonsai. but I have been near the top in other things, and I would like to make some comments.
I got a BS in physics. Then I went back and farmed with Dad for a few years. Doing physics professionally didn't have much appeal to me, I realized as a senior in college. It had never been much more than curiousity about the way the world works. The actual doing of serious experiments din't really interest me at that time. Reading the results did. And growing things did. So I went back to the farm.
But my senior year, I took a beginning course in genetics. And while farming, I would alwaysa wonder if a given supeerior plant was superior because of better genetics, or because a cow had planted a cow pie at that spot.
I read everything I could on genetics, started breeding iris and a few other plants. I loved it! In about 4 years I went to grad school in genetics.
As a husband of one and a father of two, graduate school was tough. But I loved every minit of it. It was the same feeling I had working with iris etc. before grad school. But I was working at a more effective level. And the level was rising daily.
After 2 years of rigourous instruction and study, I found myself in Africa (Niger) in charge of vegetable research for the whole country. It was the same feeling I had working with iris etc. before grad school. But I was doing more good, getting more results, others were glad to do the grunt work so I had more time to plan and do the breeding. I was making good money, too, but that was a side issue. The plant breeding was why I jumped out of bed and got to wort by 6:30 evry morning. The joy of plant breeding was the same.
During this time in Africa, I realized that while the principles of genetics were the same, and experimental methods hadn't changed, sometimes the plants responded much differently from the published results in temperate regions. This puzzeled me a great deal.
Then one day a Dutch vegetable breeder working in Nigeria showed up and wanted to talk about results he had that contradicted some of the published results from temperate regions. He had two of his graduate studants with him.
We talked for about 12 hours straight. We began to compare results and see why things were going like they did.

Now I would like to make a comprison between that discussion and an online group.
There were just four of us. The exact number isn't critical, but it was few enough that we could each say what was on our mind and be heard.
Online we can post what we want, but there is no guarantee that we will be read or undestood. And there is a real possiblity that we will be missunderstood and severely criticised. Also the possiblity that one will be understood and severly criticised.
Online people may compliment or downgrade our work. In that group, we were all devoted to the problem at hand, Personalities mattered little. Egos mattered even less. What mattered was that we had found someone who understood the problems, and had pieces of the puzzel we were working on.

As a hobbiest, I had gone to some conferences, and herd speakers tha I understood a little. I was dazzeled by what they were doing. I loved it.
As a grad studant, I had attended seminars, and given a few. At that time I had done complete litterature searches on certain narrow topics, and had read everything ever written on that small area. I could converse more or less as an expert in those very tiny fields. I loved it.
That day in Africa, when Dr. Van Amstel and I were talking, together with his grad studants, we were the experts of two whole countries. I wasn't thinking of that at the time. But I loved it.

So to bring this long piece of typing to a close, if not a conclusion, I encourage everyone to learn by any means you can all that you can about bonsai, or what ever your passion is.
I can't afford to go study bonsai under some teacher. A seminar is a distant dream. But I have read many books, and am looking for better books that have been recomended. I have collected a few trees and started hundreds of seedlings. I glean what I can from groups like this, mostly lurking because I am new at this, and I go out and look at trees.
What I have gotten out of bonsai so far is mostly a new way of looking at big, wild, trees.

In 10 years or so, I hope to have some real nice trees. It occurred to me after starting hundreds of seeds this year that on retirement, I might get a modest income from selling my practice trees. The nicedst mallsai around.
But whtever level I reach, I'll be loving it.

Andy, you don't take enough credit, yourself, for starting very interesting topics and the contributions you make to them, nor do you give enough credit to the other contributors. Alot of very interesting things have been pointed out.

I don't want to embarrass you, because you are a gifted and often charming young man, but, it's not all about you.

I guess that "instruction " is a pretty interesting topic, but I think "learning" is alot more so.

I think that talent is far and away the most important component of success in Bonsai and is also far and away the most mysterious. When I was working in Computer Systems Development, it was widely recognized that the difference between the most productive programmers and the average programmer was more than a factor of ten. Actually, quite a bit more. The difference between gifted programmers and average ones showed up very rapidly, certainly within 2 years. I, myself, was pretty good; probably 2 or 3 times as good as average, but there were those I knew of that were WAY better than I was.

Alot of the difference seemed to come down to "recognition" Some individuals were uncanny in their ability to recognize and apply information about programming; as though they had, in some way, been "pre-wired " to receive it. But it was also a mystery as to why certain individuals also had the ability to apply what they learned and even more mysterious why some of us had the ablity to create totally new approaches and teach them to others. I was totally unable to do this, even after many successful years in the field. Well, actually I was pretty good at teaching, but never developed anything new that was significant.

Alot of effort was put into developing tests to try to identify programming talent. None were ever really entirely successful.

I see lots of parallels between programming computers and developing bonsai. Who among us can comprehend the talent of, say, our own Walter Pall. I would never try to compare myself to him, nor do I aspire to reach his level. As he has said, he NEVER HAS BEEN IN JAPAN, much less studied there. Or even taken any formal classes. I could have spent ten years under the finest Japanese masters, learning much and increasing my ability to create recognizable bonsai, but I still wouldn't be one of Al's players at Walter's level. I know myself well enough to be quite sure of this.

There are unquestionably ways to nurture or inhibit talent. But talent.......ah, there's the mystery.

Fred

Andy, you make some very interesting and true points. I was introdused to Bonsai a number of years ago with a Valentine gift from my wife. I had expressed an interest in Bonsai for years but never attempted it. The gift was a beginners course from a local shop. The course was a six week, 3 hours a week and the course price was a neat $65 (that is right 65). The course was very well structured and covered through lecture, demo and our application all the mechanical and hodicultural aspects of Bonsai. After three weeks we bought trees and were led through the initial design phase of the tree. We even covered and performed potting at the end of the course. At the end we had trees that we "pre-bonsai's" and a clear picture of where the tree was headed to be a "bonsai.

The best $65 I ever spent. I understood the basics enough to go home and apply them with confidence.

From their I attended workshops and studied in all day classes with a number of "players" in the region. These were relatively inexpensive (under $100). From each I picked up a point or two about balance, styling and species designs. Of course I may have been a pest with all the questions I asked to draw out information (the why of things).

After a number of years of applying what I had learned and read I was presented with an opportunty to take a 3 year program with Colin Lewis. Through this effort I have raised my skills and knowledge of bonsai to another level. I entered this course of study with the intent of working on three trees over three years during the open work periods of the course. In working on these three trees I have transformed them and refined them to truely nice and noticable trees (have even had offers of good money for them if that is a guage).

Colin had projects for us to do following his lectures and these have diversified my knowledge of the variouse styles. Further during and after the classes in talking with Colin, I was able to gain insite to the "eye of the artist". This was the second goal I had set for myself in entering the program.

Now I can look at a tree and feel confident that I can convert it to a respectable bonsai.

I agree that the education part of your initial statments is correct. But the ongoing practice of the methods and exploration of new techniques (like bending large branches over 90 degrees) is also required. The ongoing application of what is learned is the key to advancement. In schools we learn the basics and advanced knowledge, but through years of application we truely learn our professions. Any practicing engineer, doctor, etc. will trestify that the school gave him or her the basics and through repetition and pushing things to the limits they have become true professionals.

I have to note here that the basic course by Ron Martin, that I took at first gave me more knowledge then the 4 hour basic courses tought at other nurseries. His "military" method of instruction, well organized with clear objectives for each block of instruction really has allowed me and those that have been through it to move to the head of any class (no spam intended). Just a really good teacher.

If clubs and other nuseries were to follow this path of a longer more thurough basic course (say a weekend long) and follow it with an advanced course ( over several years ) with projects, I believe that the hobbyist or potential artist out there would move quickly to the next level. But this means that the individual has to have the dedication and persistence to stick with the program.

It is kind of like the military reserves. We go to basic upon joining and the learn during the monthly drills to refine and increase out skills. Between meetings we think about them and study the books and even apply what we learn at home. Bonsai is kind of the same thing in my mind.

Richard

Really.........This is very interesting.

Matt I loved your golf scenario.........

Al point very well made........


When we really get to the bottom line, who are we trying to kid?

I really admire all of the artists here on this forum for the plants that they have put forward and even the instruction and tips that I have received.

I even respect those artists that have published their books to pass on the knowledge that they have acquired.

I seriously think that I will always do this for my enjoyment whether or not anyone ever respects or approves of anything I do.

When I stand there watering my plants, I look that them with pride. I think about how healthy they look and how proud I am of myself that I haven't killed a plant in the last 2 months or so.

Then I hear people attempting to say that you need to sit under this many years of instruction to be respected. Some would say that if you have not had any formal schooling, or training that your opinion doesn't count. Still others say that you need to have a specific type of schooling to put out a great tree.

When in reality we are all mere humans making up our own rules, regulations and guidelines which are all merely our interpretation of what God/Nature/The Elements do naturally.

I have walked out in nature and seen absolutely horrid looking plants that have lived years and years, and they reached that state without wire, cutting tools, fertilizer, cut paste, superthrive, etc. Would that plant not be accepted because it did not fit the ratios, branch arrangements, zen requirements that have all been set up by mere humans?

Yet we constantly try to convince ourselves that we are the authority on balance, harmony, and asthetics. When in reality we have to cut, bend, repot, trim, and force a living thing to grow contrary to what nature does naturally. Just so it will conform into the reality of our own rules.

Just my thoughts.......

On the other side of the coin.

Andy I would like to commend you on the precise articulation in your posts.

They always come with the potential to ruffle feathers, none the less, I enjoy reading your topics and collect mental notes that can further my writing skills and use of grammar.

I know......I know.......go take a college writing class.....LOL.......

Andy,

To add my own egocentric musings...

I'm not sure where all the misreading came in; you'd think by now that before responding to anything Andy writes one would take time for more than a quick skimming before one's ire is allowed to froth... Shame, shame…

Andy's thesis was quite clear and conveniently located.

"Online discussion forums and bonsai workshops are fun, interesting and sometimes helpful, but they are by no means credible substitutes for real instruction. "

He even repeats it towards the end in case you've missed it.

Andy perhaps expends more energy than necessary editorializing about teaching options; i.e., his workshops peeves, albeit all "fact" and "data" is really anecdotal when it comes to bonsai, so really it leaves one little to work with. I'm more accustomed to scientific papers. ;^) That's his style, I have mine…

He does, however, get to the point(s) towards the end by listing out the shortcomings of forum dynamics. Perhaps a thesis focus on "flash–in-the pan" learning techniques might have been closer to his intent.

Of Giraffes and Hippos

Really all Andy has done is point out that just as a hippo is not a giraffe, discussion forums are not "schools". How this can be deemed so controversial is beyond me. He's not said "exterminate the hippo", just recognize it for what it is…not necessarily the most efficient instrument for stripping leaves at 20 feet.

I got bitten by the "bug" at an early age- 18. I still have my very first real tree. This simple horticultoral feat should place you in awe and command your respect, if nothing else ;^).

I learned solely from Bonsai Today and books for years because I had little choice due to health reasons. I learned techniques and horticulture. I piddled with seeds, cuttings, etc., treated myself to the occasional "specimen" and took in a local show when I heard of them.

I discovered the Internet. I found out I wasn't the only person doing bonsai in Texas. This helped immensely with more of the climatic issues I was dealing with. But there were always those folks that would preface by saying "I don't know anything about your tree or Texas or plants, BUT…" They have to have their turn… Overall, my trees grew healthier, but my collection was still fairly humble. The internet continues to be a paradox; a limitted resource with incredible potential.

I was able to join Houston Bonsai Society with a return to health and attend conventions, demos and a few workshops' and start collecting natives. I gained access to better material and learned a few new techniques- I "saw it" being done. But to bring a tree in was basically submission to another "forum". And it seemed nobody liked what I was doing because it wasn't all 1-2-3 branching or what Naka would do. A workshop leader would do his thing (or not) and that was it. Best advice I ever got was to pick up just one new thing and apply it. Sometimes I cheated and brought home two or three or (rarely) a whole page of notes! All still very piecemeal, one-off/case-specific information. Ah yes, and then there's the politics…

Somewhere in here my wife stuck her head out the back door and looked around "These things are starting to look like bonsai- like the ones in the books I mean…" She must have seen the pre-qualifier glare I shot her…

I couldn't help feeling all this was like the clip and grow way to being a bonsai artist. Then, on that darned Internet, of all places, I got involved discussing what would make a good bonsai school with some guy in the UK named Colin Lewis…

So, yes, Richard and I are "schoolmates". We both came in "knowing bonsai", albeit from different paths; (the average SC Ho-Yoku student has 5 years under their belt, with a range of 0-20+ years). I think because of this we generally approach things very differently. Personnally I think the years of working by myself have given me poor habits- I jury-rig wiring, putz around- I'll cut this one off later, I BS with Ron too much- but I do think I have my own "style" or natural images I work towards. I've got no sense of "urgency".

This is not a formal step-by-step curriculum, but more of one of tying things together, personal development and learning to see, to think and to plan. Our third and final year is expected to focus on the aspect of working by ourselves from start to finish, teaching, etc., i.e., being as much a "player" as one cares to be.

The focus was never on particular "styles" or "schools" and really has only one significant standard- MAKE GOOD BONSAI. There is no "happy to be me", "just my size", "save my Faberge egg self-esteem", "it's my art and I enjoy it" or "it's chinese style" baloney.

We simply act like adults. We respect each other (for the most part ;^)) and our efforts (mid afternoon cocktails help sometimes); if you do something odd and get called on it you better be able to defend it. Colin has the last word solely because he's usually right… ;^)

Hippo Reprise

Hippos just are what they are. Sometimes that hippo might need a set of stairs built or a hoist to get the job done; or you may have to boost him up on your own shoulders.

Discussion groups and any other limitted focus resource begin to resemble trying to learn world history with Trivial Pursuit cards.

There's a lot of folks with it's the "path" response. Fine. But some paths might make the journey more enjoyable…

Quite frankly I've grown more as a bonsai artist in the last two or so years than the previous 16. And my trees show it. It comes back to having focus. Being held accountable for my work; having a yardstick placed against it.

Jim Stone
TX

Jim Stone
TX

Bart:
Don't you dare tell the hippopotamus story ... on the other hand, there appear to be enuf techies here that it might be OK