OK, everybody, I can't seem to get this issue out of my mind lately, so, even though probably everything that is worthwhile on the subject has already been said, I'm going to offer another 2 cents worth.

It seems to me that when I criticize another person's work, comments in a discussion, answer their questions, that this is a human being that I'm talking to and their personal dignity is just as important as the information that I'm trying to convey. Does this make me a dishonest person or somehow less than genuine? Well, I don't think so.

What is Bonsai really all about? Is it patience and wonder at what Nature and God hath wrought? To me, that's incompatable with an attitude of contempt towards others with the same interest and sensibilities.

Best regards, Fred

Fred, yes this topic has been touch on in other places. It ALWAYS is worth talking about. I can not strongly enough says how we must not mislead each other with comments.

Walter has touched on the fact that differing cultures are more upfront with the critque than others. He reminded me (us) that the English (and I guess we are included) will go out of our way to not offend someone. I think I have added that when you are not face to face with someone, you must be extremely careful.

Go back and look at some of the trees that were less advanced (can you say seedlings) than others. When their owners asked for comment they received very little comment. I think this was an attempt by most to be polite. "If you can not say something good, say nothing" approach. Even some of the comments were vague....Nice beginning, perhaps needs some time to grow out... put it into the ground for a few years etc etc

My own feeling is we should respect the feelings of each other. But we should also respect each other. By that I mean we must be honest with each other. Now the way we take this honesty to print is the interesting matter. You can be honest but also respectful at the same time, it does take a few more words but is usually worth the effort!

Hi Jay,

This is a good topic. I don't believe that it involves an issue of respect of politeness. They don't seem to help. These concepts vary greatly between individuals and simple misunderstanding and chips on shoulders causes them to often be rendered moot. What is more of an issue, I believe, is the counterintuitive way that most participants read into the words of others.

By way of example, let me now share some of what I have learned in online interactive gallery forums. Here is an online forum glossary that you may find helpful:

Bonsai – 1. Any plant in any pot. 2. The non-artistic endeavor of container gardening.

Specimen Bonsai – 1. Any plant in a nice pot. 2. A bonsai that is owned by an elitist jerk (see "Elitist Jerk").

Good bonsai – A bonsai grown by a person who really loves his or her bonsai.

High Quality – 1. An irrelevant concept in bonsai. 2. The kind of a bonsai that is owned by someone who really really loves his or her bonsai.

Opinion – 1. Everything that anyone writes in an online forum. 2. An element of discussion that is above reproach and not subject to facts or accuracy.

Fact – An irrelevancy; facts are not known by mere mortals (who are you to say what "is" and what "isn't"?).

Correction of an inaccuracy – A personal attack.

Instruction – 1. Pontification. 2. Grandstanding by an elitist jerk (see "Elitist Jerk"). 3. A personal attack.

Helpful advice – 1. Advice that is in accord with the preconceptions and desires of those who ask for advice. 2. Advice that is in accord with the majority of neophyte discussion list participants. 3. Advice offered by a nice person (see "Nice").

Helpful Individual – 1. A person who frequently offers advice that is in accord with the wishes and preconceptions of those who ask for advice.

Elitist Jerk – 1. One who offers honest advice to those who ask for advice. 2. One who has a rudimentary understanding of bonsai technique. 3. One whose opinion differs from the consensus among neophyte discussion list participants. 4. One who shares facts (when we all know it’s nothing more than opinion).

Criticism – 1. Relevant advice or observations from an elitist jerk (see "Elitist Jerk"). 2. A personal attack. 3. The really, really, really bad form of advice (see also "Mean"). 4. Advice that is offered by a mean person (see "Mean").

Constructive Criticism – 1. An irrelevant and non-existent concept. 2. Observations offered by a nice person that is in accord with the preconceptions and desires of the one reading the observations.

Hobbyist – 1. One who grows bonsai (see "Bonsai") for the right reasons. 2. One who asks for advice in an effort to receive affirmation of preconceptions. 3. The good guys, the nice people. 4. The true bonsai people - those who understand that bonsai is not an artistic endeavor.

Bonsai Artist – 1. One who has written a bonsai book. (See also "Elitist Jerk.") 2. One whose desire it is to put beginners in their rightful place. 3. A hobbyist who has left the path of wisdom and who has an over inflated self image.

Nice – 1. (advice) Advice that is in accord with the preconceptions and desires of those who ask for advice. 2. (person) A person whose advice is always in accord with the preconceptions and desires of those who asks for advice.

Mean – 1. (advice) Advice that is not in accord with the preconceptions and desires of those who ask for advice. 2. (person) A person whose advice is not always in accord with the preconceptions and desires of those who ask for advice.


For those who would desire to help others learn in an online discussion forum, there are some key phrases that need translation. Know these translations before you attempt to help or offer advice:

Some commonly offered observations and bits of advice with their inferred online forum translations:

"You need to move your juniper from your coffee table to an outdoor location." - Translation: "You are a horrible person and lack the talent to grow bonsai. Further, I do not like you."

"Your living in an apartment limits what species you can easily grow." - Translation: "You poor little person. You can't even afford a house and you expect to grow bonsai?! Get thee hence!"

"I wouldn't advise that you start styling that tree yet. It would be best if you planted it in a growing box or in the ground for a couple of years." - Translation: "You are a speck of a person, not worthy of this grand art, as represented by my example."

"That is a young piece of material. Given time, it could be a cool looking bonsai." - Translation: "Ha! What a piece of crap! You obviously don't know what you're doing. Perhaps one day you will be a bonsai guru, like me."

"The taper of the trunk could be improved if you cut it back to the third branch." - Translation: "You are such a horrible person. I don't know why I even bother to stoop to your level. Now, go and burn your horrid tree."


Some questions you will encounter:

"What do you think I should do with this tree?" – (caution!) Translation: "Please tell me that this is a great tree and that I’m a wonderful person."

"What do you think of my styling of this tree?" – (danger!) Translation: "Please tell me that I did a great job and that I'm a wonderful person."

"Why can't I grow my juniper on the coffee table?" – (danger!) Translation: "I don't want your stupid advice or your scientific mumbo-jumbo. Just tell me that my tree is beautiful and that I'm a wonderful person."

"Why are you so mean?" – Translation: "Why do you express your honest opinion when you know damn well that I just want to be told that I'm a wonderful person?"


Common responses to your advice and observations or to your interjections of fact or to corrections of inaccuracy:

"I was simply stating my opinion." – Translation: "How dare you suggest that I don’t know what I'm talking about?!" or "There is absolutely no possibility that I am wrong, so don't even suggest it," or "Holy crap! I just pulled that one out of my backside and this elitist jerk called me on it!"

"Everyone here has a right to their own opinion." – Translation: "Heeeey, don't you go bringing facts into this discussion. There is no right or wrong and there’s no such thing as 'accurate' and 'inaccurate'."

"You don’t have to be so harsh." – Translation: "I didn't say that I wanted your honest opinion. I just want a pat on the back and to be told that I'm a wonderful person." or "Your facts are correct but that should not take away from the fact that I'm a wonderful person."

"You're an elitist jerk." - Translation: "Thank you for your correction of my inaccuracies, but kindly keep your observations to yourself. This is a public forum and there are many who now know that I have no idea what I'm talking about. Damn!"


So, after a few years of frequenting online discussion forums and interactive galleries, I now know what's what and who's who. I know who the good guys are and who the bad guys are. I know what quality bonsai is and I know what a good bonsai is. I know that right is only right so long as everyone agrees and I know that good advice only comes from nice people. I know that your opinion is fact and that my fact is just opinion and I know that none of us could possibly know what’s good or bad (unless all neophytes agree) and that artists will be the death of bonsai. I also know to be sure to tell everyone that their trees are great and that they're wonderful people.

*just having some fun* ;-)

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

hehe, good stuff

Andy, that would be funnier if it weren't quite so true!

I have another take on the tongue-in-cheek ranking


Specimen bonsai - Any bonsai imported from another country, regardless of quality or price

Masterpiece bonsai - Any bonsai that cost more than it should have. (You may not create your own masterpiece bonsai, but you can certainly sell yours to someone else).

Good bonsai - Any tree that is neither Specimen or Masterpiece

LOOK! RARE, ONE-OF-A-KIND EXCELLANT BONSAI!!! - any bonsai for sale on eBay. Also includes pre-bonsai, mallsai and rooted cuttings.

Regards,

Matt

Andy, you left out the pseudonyms bit...

Regards,

TB

Whew!... Barely skated by on that one...sure glad "I" don't fit in any of those catagory's....

Al

Oh... well.... if there wasn't so much truth in what you say Andy it would have me rolling on the floor.

I may be but a student of the Art but I know what I see... and what I hear... and it ain't all what it should be!!

J

In my travels I am often asked to critique bonsai trees. This is not an easy thing to do.

Actually it is an easy thing to criticize but a hard thing to give a good evaluation of some ones trees.

To do this one has to be able to filter out their personal tastes and go on pure artistic merits. Not an easy thing to do. After all we are not androids. We cannot help but think our way is best and all others have fallen short of that mark. The standards must be , well, standard. Not just our opinion.

Problem is when standards are set the first victim is usually artistic expression. The next is motivation. With standards comes sameness. Sameness breeds boredom. And boredom kills art.

Did you ever notice that most critiques center on a branch or the apex of the tree. Some go straight for the pot. Scars on the trunk are another favorite.

Seldom does the evaluator look at the whole picture. Is that over all picture pleasing. Tiny parts of the tree are picked apart. This branch needs to be moved 3 degrees to the right. The pot needs to be a darker shade of blue. On and on the list goes.

It is easy to find fault. Tunnel vision will always point the way.

Another problem with a critique is why it is given. Was it asked for or just put out.

There are several ways one can say “What do think of this tree”

One way is to ask for constructive criticism and hope for the best. But some people put their pride and joy in front of you and ask “what do you think” hoping you will see how hard they have worked. Do they both deserve the same answer.

I have learned to first look the owner of the tree straight in the eyes. Determine what he is asking for.

Then step back and look not only at the tree but the spirit of the tree. See what the artist was trying to do. Look at the whole tree. See, as they used to say in the military, the whole picture.

And remember behind every bonsai there is a real person waiting for you to say something. When you tear his or her tree down you also are ripping a person apart. Tell the truth but be gentle. Try to encourage.

One day you will be on the receiving end. Hopefully those looking at your trees will know what you mean when you say “WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THIS TREE”.

I will cast my lot with Ron Martin, You can suggest that a person take a new direction with out bleeding them to death. In my fifteen years in the art of Bonsai I find it quite funny that the only expert that had any thing good to say about what I am trying to do in bonsai was a young Japanese Bonsai Teacher. I am still trying to heal from some of the tough love that I have recieved from the Bonsai Experts! A very good critique will spend as much time reinforcing what is good about a tree as it does trying to redirect and correct what is wrong with a tree. That being said "GOOD LUCK"

Glenn