Hello Men,

I usually don't but this time I will...

Treebay,

As usually nailed it with a practical tutorial. Saved me a half hour of two fingered plunking, thanks!

Walter,

I feel your pain. I can relate to the monthly torture of telling students that their little nursery find is "Not good bonsai material" It is so sad and wastful. Seen some here too.
I commend you for better spelling and grammer than many native english speakers.

Al,

Keep on preaching lots are listening.

But...

I have to support some points of Fred the L. There is room for both sides. We all know that especialy in Japan there are propagators, growers, field cultivators, People who pot and market, Auctioneers and middlemen, masters who cherry pick the best and collectors that support them. They are all pieces of the puzzle.

AND, SOMEBODY HAS GOT TO GROW THE STUFF! MAKES MORE CHOICES FOR THE REST OF US AND OUR ANCESTORS!

Let the Freds have there Fun with twigs, it's his right.

"Undeniable bonsai truths"

1. Beginners will make dumb choices buying starter stock.

2. Advanced will roll their eyes when they see said stock and wonder how to politely tell them of the dumbness

3. Lots of guys like to propagate

4. Some advanced see time slipping away and consider seeds cuttings and layers as a waste.

5. But, All parts of the bonsai world are important. No one should be shut out or up.

I tooo usually do not try and input to these threads, but I will try.

I agree in principal with Walter. My problem, and I think the problem with many of us, is the inability to learn what is good stock.

We spend hours and hours online reading and looking at pictures. We spend equal amounts of time reading books and magazines. We may even spend time in workshops and lectures. We increase our knowledge of:
1- what will grow in our area
2- what we need to do to maintain this or that tree
3- How to prune and trim
4- Wiring knowledge is also acquired
5- we learn what someone else can do to the tree
6- I'm sure I left some out

But.... we do little to learn the basics of how to choose the correct tree to start with.(Thank you Matt for once again an extremely helpful list) We may choose a lower price over the higher of two similar trees. What do we think, one was miss marked? No... The one at the higher price probably has more to offer. Or the higher priced trees are more advanced than others.

We also do not look at the stock and see the tree within, we like what we see and hope that the tree will come out to us later. This is not a good thing; we need to see the tree before we purchase it. I can not tell you how many times I purchased a tree with the intent of doing this or that, using side A as the front and not understanding why I was getting such a bargain. I get this tree home and after study (which I should have done before purchase) realizes that side A has a major problem and that the back or left side is really the front..... But wait, this new front has problems that are worse that the original.... this bargain tree isn't such a bargain after all.......

As I progress in Bonsai I am attempting to increase my knowledge and capability in many areas. The most important I think is in avoiding the "GARBAGE FOR DINNER" that I have sometimes (OK often) been guilty of.

This Thread is far more important than many realize.............

My 2 cents
Jay

My 2 penn' 'orth...

Distinguishing good from bad... to a newbie, almost anything looks good. Therein lies the problem.

Regards,

TB

I have posted this here before and it is in the latest issue of the ABS Journal.
Seems like a good time and place to post it again. Hope that it is of some help to somebody

Nursery Stock
SELECTING SOMETHING TO START WITH


So where do I start ? I have read almost all the books. Looked at a zillion pictures. Just what kind of pre-bonsai do I need to create a masterpiece? If I want to create a beautiful bonsai can, I start off with just any thing?

A maple after all is just a maple. So all I need to do is get one and, presto, a few whacks and a bit of wire later one has, or should have, a masterpiece. Sounds simple.

What happened ? I did have all the pieces-parts to do the job but, somehow it just did not work out. How could this happen ?

Wish there was a simple answer to this. None comes to mind but I do hope that the following helps a bit.

First, let me say that all trees are pre-bonsai. Every nursery has lots of pre-bonsai lined up in all those plastic nursery containers. A walk in the woods will yield plenty of pre-bonsai that can be dug up. They are easy to find. Pre-bonsai are everywhere. They just need a little work to become at least something.

Problem is sorting through all those pre-bonsai's and finding the potential bonsai among them. Lots to chose from but very few correct choices to make. A bit of time spent in the selecting process goes a long way.

Just what turns a "pre-bonsai" into a bonsai? More, important what makes some not a good selection? How do we find the potential bonsai among all those possibilities?

Lots of answers to this question. None of them are all that easy to give in a few short paragraphs. Whole books could be written on the subject and still not cover it completely. It might be easier to tell you what to stay away from than to tell you what is good.

Bonsai is a time consuming art form. One makes a few cuts then waits for the tree to catch up. Then we use some wire and wait some more. Try as we may that tree will not be forced to grow faster that it wants to.

Styling a tree does damage the tree. Hopefully this is constructive, well thought out, but it is still damage to the tree. Cuts take time and energy to heal. What we do to the little bugger does slow down the growth process. Anything else that also slows down this process should be avoided at all costs. At least during the styling process.

Sick plants are bad. They slow down the growth process more than anything. Time must be spent getting it healthy again before we can start. Working on a sick one usually means disaster. If you do find that the sick thing in front of you has potential, then make sure it has enough to make the time spent in getting it back to healthy is worth the effort. Something to think about when you are tempted to save that half dead poor thing in one of those chain stores.

Sloppy pruning cuts, wire marks, poor graft unions and large amounts of dead wood are all good indicators of a bad choice. They all take time to correct and heal. Poor graft unions are one thing that you will be stuck with forever. Poor pruning cuts, etc, can be fixed. But again that takes extra time.

Time is a valuable commodity, only the young can afford to waste it. And even their supply is limited. Don’t waste it on a sick or poorly formed tree. Get something healthy. You will do enough to the tree to slow down the process all by yourself. You don’t need any extra help.

But what makes for a good choice?

Trunk

Most important, and what takes the longest to grow, is the trunk.
Does it have good taper? Does the shape suit your needs ? Is it pleasing to look at ? Growing a nicely shaped trunk takes time and, unless you are growing from seedlings a poorly formed trunk will always be a poorly formed trunk. Basically, if the trunk is small enough to bend with wire then it is going to be a long range project. Do you want to wait that long? Look closely and make sound decisions based on realistic goals.

The root spread or Nabari

Is there one and does it match the trunk? Big question. Sometimes you have a great Nabari and a great trunk but they both go in different directions. Not an easy thing to correct.

Branches

It is better to have too many. You can always take off what is not needed. That is easier than putting them on. Heavy branches at the top and thin branches at the bottom are always a problem. So look closely.

Growth habit of the plant

Know the growth habit of the tree. One that wants to grow prostrate will not make a good formal upright and one that wants to grow upright will not make a good cascade. You will always be fighting to make the tree do something it doesn’t want to do. Use its natural growth pattern. It is a lot easier that way.

Domestic trees are always better than imported ones. Dwarf varieties are always preferable over the standard ones. Just a short note here. By imported trees I don’t just mean trees that have come in from Japan, Korea, etc. Trees that have been brought in from a climate different than your own falls into the same category. Trees do not know borders, just climates.

Fruits and flowers will not reduce in size. Colors will not change. Look hard at these things, you are stuck with them for the most part.

Look at the size of the plant you’re working with. A six inch plant will take years to make into a three foot tall masterpiece. Taller, however, can be cut down to size, the offending scars hidden and a nice piece completed in a shorter time.

When you think about it the choices are not all that hard. The stock you start off with, to a great extent, will make the bonsai. Bad will get you bad and good will get you better.
You just have to think about what you are doing .

Spend some time, a lot of time, in the initial selection of your material. Look closely and study it hard. If you can’t see the tree in it then DON’T BUY IT.

Continue looking until you find that perfect specimen. Pass up the pre-bonsai and go for the potential bonsai. Don’t waste your time, use it wisely.

Decide what you want the finished product to look like then go in search of raw stock that will give you a chance of achieving these goals.

Ron M,

What can I say, but nice, nicely done. I hope you are not just preaching to the choir...





SPREAD THE WORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Always the choir

I look at bonsai as a large cookie. The masters have the whole cookie. The newbies want parts of the cookie to help make their uncomplete cookie whole. When a question is asked of an expieranced bonsai person the get a piece of the cookie broken off and passed to them. Sooner or later the cookie may not be whole but given enough time it is complete enough to start doing great bonsai.

Now.., while I in no way think of myself as a expert or master or any of the other technical terms we have to affix to someone more learned, I can offer a small piece of the cookie to those that wish to accept it.

If you want to become proficient at picking stock, offer yourself at the club as a workshop teacher. Bite the bullet and offer yourself as a "buddy" to the less learned in your own club.

Like John Naka said to Ernie Kuo, " The fastest way to learn bonsai, is to teach bonsai".

When you offer yourself to someone that may not have the expierance you do, you will be amazed at how much the rules come to the surface, and you start applying them to those twigs in pots and low and behold you actually can make something pretty good out of that twig in a nursery container. The more you teach the better you get. You have much more opportunity to see stock that you would not necessarily buy, but by virtue of your new position, must try to make something of it. This is very challanging, and puts you in the position that many artists are subjected to every time they show up for a demo to work on stock they have never seen.

Try it you may like it. Bonsai-al

Hello,
I guess I will offer my two cents on the issue as I suspect it may have been my tree that sparked this debate . As a someone with only five years of experience in Bonsai I would say that my perspective of good stock has most certainly developed along with the rest of my skills. Starting out, anything was good stock to me. Something to wire, something to trim it filled a need that is a relative weakness of many, myself included, impatience.

As my skills have devoloped I have certainly come to value better stock material as the most important aspect of begining to create a bonsai that is palatable not only to my own sense of style but to others as well. But I must say that I still draw on those mistakes originally made on the first few plants that I purchased. They most certainly were horrifically ugly but every mistake is a lesson that I wont forget.

While I believe that it is okay to purchase poor material, in the first one to two years of learning ( If no guidance is offered in this area by a bonsai club or teacher or pre bonsai stock is not readily available in your area) I must agree with Walter on the problem that this presents when people have more time invested into the art. The the BYOT workshop phenomenon is the biggest problem in this area. I have seen demonstrations where many so called experienced club members have showed up with one or two gallon plants from their local nursery. This is not the purpose of the workshop. A workshop such as this should be for a master to offer advice on a good piece of stock not a stick from the local nursery or something more developed but lacking many ideal features. Nothing agianst the stick, it is just not the purpose of the exercise. If a master is going to take his time to think about your tree shouldnt you put a little thought and money into it as well? In most cases your paying for his/her advice so why pay to have he/she tell you to cut back to the first branch and plant it in the ground and then be finished with your tree. Thats just not smart or econimical planning.

This is where I think Fred L got confused about Walter's orginal post. He was not condeming the development of pre bonsai stock. He was stressing its importance. His issue is with those who bring garbage and expect greatness. Not with those who are taking the time to raise undeveloped stock to the next level.

Now comes the question of why? Why did I show my tree to Walter? Looking at it in the picture on the screen I certainly couldn't fathom why. The answer I think, is that it is a case of many hours of work turned bad. I spent many hours trying to figure out what to do with four branches. It is human nature for people to despise seeing their work go to waste. The maybe he can fix it instinct is what causes this. But my time originally would have been better spent looking for better stock. Bad stock does in most cases make bad bonsai.

So Walter keep telling them and keep telling them why, so you dont have to tell them twice.


-Reed

Ron and all,

Here's what I'd like to know (and, believe me. this is NOT a retorical question): Assuming that $35 is an appropriate price to put on a good, solid pre-bonsai tree that is struturally sound and ready for initial styling and moving to a bonsai pot, what does it take to get a seedling to that point? Can most seedlings that are of appropriate species and/or cultivar, be brought to that point with proper technique and enough time devoted to them, or will many fail for reasons beyond the control of even the best practitioners? Is it reasonable to think that most seedlings will form a good root structure, good nebari, well tapered trunks, an appropriate branch structure if handled properly over several years? If not, most of them? Half of them? Ten percent? One percent? Practically none?

And, what about stock that does not show obvious promise, ie. that already looks like a bonsai.? Are most faults a matter of time or are they simply uncorrectable, regardless of how much time and effort are thrown at them.

I find the idea of conservation of time and effort (which both equate to expense, that is, money) completely credible. At the same time, I am baffled by what seems to me confusion between this indisputable truth and the assertion that many trees are simply "garbage" and can never be formed into acceptable bonsai. Most of the discussion of this subject seems to inter-mingle and confuse these two issues. Truth is, I get the impression that most successful practitioners never really get past the first point and just kind of throw in the second rather gratuitously to further justify a postion they've already accepted based on the first point.

How do they know what can be done with seedlings or undistinguished stock; they never work with them. Or if they did, it was briefly early in their career before they got good at what they do.

Walter himself has shown the development of a couple of magnificent clump specimens from what I'm sure most of us would feel fit the garbage catagory if anything would, John Naka shows how to get to the $35 starter catagory with seedlings and "sticks" in the ground in "Bonsai Techniques I". Other authors do as well.

I think it entirely appropriate to point out to beginners that material that is closer to the potting stage will save time, often significant time, in the development of trees into mature bonsai. I think that is quite a different thing than the message that many trees are garbage and can never be developed into bonsai. Or even that there are not well-known known techniques to do so.

I've sure seen alot of solemn-faced finger wagging on this point. Myself, I think the time and effort issue is a completely personal decision. I guess for most Westerners, it's almost like an attack on our religion to suggest that there may be people with a desire to take any route other than the fastest and cheapest to a given result. Well, all I can say is that I sure hope that I can be taken as the warm and fuzzy, basically good hearted eccentric in our midst rather than the cold and scratchy, crazy crank when I say that I am attracted to a different road than that of maximizing my bonsai growing efficiency.

By the way, took the family to see "Sea Biscuit" last week. Wonderful, wonderful movie. Takes a few liberties with history, but is basically pretty much the straight story. Now, if there was ever a "Garbage Horse" that should have been sent to the Glue Factory after his second year, surely it was Sea Biscuit. Of course, as many of us know, he ended up as unquestionably one of the greatest thoroughbreds in the history of horse racing.

Could there be a lesson there for Bonsai enthusiasts?

With continued best regards, Fred

Jay said

"We also do not look at the stock and see the tree within, we like what we see and hope that the tree will come out to us later. This is not a good thing; we need to see the tree before we purchase it."

Yeah, that's the problem. When we are new at the bonsai game we really have no idea what defects are correctable and which are a lost cause. We usually have no idea how trees actually grow. Books and demos are great but I think most knowledge is gained form getting in there and doing it. Sure you'll kill alot of trees and butcher others beyond any hope of good bonsai but you will learn in the process. I haven't arrived yet but I'm getting much better and faster at seeing which trees have true potential and seeing the tree within the bush. You just have to stay with it.

If you don't want to have to pick through the garbage to get to the bonsai then learn to grow your own stock from seeds and cuttings. That way you get them young, before they turn into garbage.

Tony