Guess now that I have sold my shop it will not get me killed if I respond to this.
The pre bonsai in my shop usually ran less than $35. Not far off from what most bonsai shops charge.
Contrary to popular belief good material is not all that expensive. It is just another one of those bonsai myths.

Fred,

'Awhile back, I saw an article in "Bonsai Today" devoted to a Japanese Black Pine which had been raised from a seed by Masahiko Kimura in Japan. It was twenty some years old and was spectacular. Now I doubt that Mr. K. saw any special qualities in the seed he collected; rather the result reflected what could be accomplished by a man of genius over the course of nearly 3 decades.'

This does not have much to do with what I wrote. I have the feeling somehow that you are giving a sort of reflex answer to what you thinkI have written instead of really reading it.
You are giving a good example that to raise extemely good bonsai from seed is quite possible. But maybe you are not so much aware that this is definitely more difficult than creating very good bonsai from already well developed material for the overwhelming majority of bonsai enthusiasts. I have seen many very good bonsai made from seed. Not as single one was done by amateurs.
But this was not at all my subject anyway.

'Actually, this is only one of many examples I've seen over the years of magnificent trees grown from seed. Quite recently BT had an article on growing JBP from seed that showed wonderful reults achieved in ten to twelve years.'

Then show me how you do this. I can assure you that it is definitely more difficlut than to work with already established material or collected material.

' Many people do not have access to such material, or it is very expesive for them to acquire.'

Not exaclty true. Everyone can go to a normal tree nursery or to old gardens and find excellent material. If he knows what excellent material is. It is also not really a matter of money. But if you just don't have the skill to find good cheap material you better go to a bonsai nursery and buy it there rather than settle with poor material.

' My own opinion is that it is not helpful to discourage them from starting bonsai from what IS easily available to them with the caution that it will take them longer to develop their trees.'

First of all I am not at all discouragin them here. I only make it very clear that it is definitley not a matter of time to create a very good bonsai out of any material. It is not a matter of skill. It is just not possible to create a very good bonsai out of poor materil. By definition. If it were good material it were possible. Even if you insist a hundred times you should have gotten the message by now. So the trick is to know the difference between garbage and good material. This is the whole point.
The trick in bonsai demonstrations and in bonsai articles which show the design of trees very often is to show material that SEEMS to be garbage and then do wonders with it. I am guilty of this. Beleive me, if one can do wonders it is not garbage. I am speaking of the material that actually is garbage and should be discarded. For some reason far too many bonsai enthusiasts just don't get this and you seem to be one of them.


'I am quite sure that if you had only "garbage" (which I take to mean younger material or material with severe defects that will require the tree to be taken back to an earlier stage of development), you would soon be developing trees just as amazing as the ones you do now, but over longer periods of time.'

Fred, you can believe it and repeat it. It is wrong!! This is exactly the message of this thread which you are trying very hard to misunderstand. It is NOT only a question of time or skill.

' have seen my own seedlings develop over the limited time I've had them and I am quite sure that given another 3 to 5 years, I will have many trees that, in your hands, could be developed into very fine specimens. '

May well be but does not prove much other than you are able to develop good material.

'You might raise the question, "But why invest so much time and effort when you could have started with something already adequate for initial styling or with the same qualities you took years to develop?". This is a valid point, which I have addressed elsewhere, but is quite a different issue from that of whether immature trees with little to recommend them can or can not be developed over a few or many years into excellent bonsai.'

Let me tell you again: they usually cannot . If they can it is so painfuol that it should be avoided altogether.

'I have friends with a "garbage dog", of uncertain parentage acquired from the local animal shelter. It is very beautiful and as smart and pleasant a dog to be around as I have ever seen. I suppose, in a Water Pall world, it would have been put to sleep the day it came in. I know it has two delighted owners that are very happy it wasn't.'

Fred, this you have to take back. That's close to an insult.
What I really mean is that people come with what you call 'garbage dog' and actually believe that it is an outstading future prize winning dog and want to hear from me how exaclty to go about this. I tell them that it is a 'garbage dog' and that they should forget it altogether and they think I am very impolite. This is the message of this thread.

best regards
Walter Pall

Fred,

'Since any tree, no matter how flawed, can be taken back to a stump, it seems to me that this must hold for most other trees as well.'

This is absolutely not true of most conifers, like pines. They cannot be stumped and redevolped normally. Many deciduous and broadleaved trees can, but more often than not this should not be done if one is not very good at bonsai already. Why, because this is beyond the skill level of most beginners.

'It is clear that Walter and many others who are masters of the art of bonsai are very good at selecting trees that offer the shortest possible route to the creation of first rate bonsai.'

Wrong! If I am good at something then at selecting the material which will be a future specimen tree. This has nothing to do with the time required to do this. This is not about shortcuts. It is about quality. This again is exactly the message of this thread: quality of material is MUCH more important than most think.

'There is not a doubt in my mind, however, that if you folks chose to work with less mature or flawed trees, it would only be a matter of time before you produced trees just as good from less mature or lower quality stock. '

Then you should have doutbts actually. This is just not the case.

'If bonsai culture is to be viewed as a purely economic activity with market economics determing not just best but all practice, your position makes perfect sense. But it is based on economics, not what is feasible, or even desirable from a different perspective.
Folks like you and Walter have a horse in this race. You and Walter sell material as well as develop trees for sale from it.'

Fred, very wrong again. You may not know this. I am an amateur, no kidding. I am an amateur who works professionally. I do sell a tree and a pot here and there, but this does not even cover my costs. I have the great fortune not to have to do this to make money This makes me so independent and enables me to go my own ways.

' The notion that the "right" way to do bonsai depends upon superior (ie expensive) material is supportive of the role you folks play in the Bonsai Community. It reminds me of the relationship of professional priests and ministers to most of organized religion, believing as they do that religion can't possibly succeed without them being economically supported by their community of believers. '

Totally wrong notion af yours. I am not at all sying that you need me or Ron or the heck whom. I am syeing that you need to learn for yourself to pick the right kind of material and not come to me and think that I can tell you how to cook a dinner with garbage.

'wish you and Walter nothing but the best and hope fervently that all the fiolks like you succeed even beyond your wildest expectations. However, I don't think that your vision of bonsai is the only "right" one nor even the best possible one for everybody.'

You are bringing in something here that has nothing to do with what was said. We are simply telling you that you have to learn something here.

best regards
Walter Pall

OK, Ron, let me ask one more question: How did the $35 material get that way? Did it not start from $10 material and that from seed? Is there not a set of practices that takes seedlings to the good pre-bonsai material stage? Can it not be studied and mastered just as the refinement of a mature tree can? Is it not fascinating in its own right?

Now I will concede that there may be material that will never become good bonsai. And I will willingly concede that I don't know much about how to identify it AT AN EARLY STAGE. In my current state of ignorance, will somebody please explain to me how to distinguish poor material from good at an early age? Everything that I have ever seen regarding selection of good material boils down to "pick something that already looks as much as possible like the finished tree you want to create". Other than the obvious issue of what species it is, or in some cases, cultivar, what sorts of things identifies some seedlings as being poor material, or what happens along the way to being a $35 pre-bonsai tree that turns out to disqualify them?

Or does it turn out that seedlings of the correct species or cultivars are pretty responsive to proper technique and a very high percentage of them can indeed be led along the trail to becoming excellent pre-bonsai material if you are willing to take the time to do so. I have been very impressed at how seedlings that I collected two years ago are growing and changing. If I had listened to the nay-sayers at the time I collected them, I would have missed out on a period of great learning and enjoyment. I think that I can say with great certainty that I have seen enough of their development to be quite sure they will soon transform themselves into material that is completely adequate for the creation of full-fledged bonsai. Well: "soon". In a few more years.

Now I don't want to be guilty of misleading all the newbies that tune into Bonsaitalk and want to get started in the proper way on this fascinating hobby. I don't want to encourage them in unrealistic fantasies or to invest lots of time and effort in activities that will never pay off. It is, however, my impression that many of them don't have alot of disposable income or the ability to travel long distances in search of good information, good tools, or good material. My message to them is, "Get started! Use available easily-obtained material and learn the basics of how to keep your trees alive. Watch how they grow and change. As time goes on, what you have learned will be of great value to you. And think long-term. Bonsai is about lengthy processes playing out over years and even decades.".

I think that anybody who can turn a $35 pre-bonsai tree into a full-fledged Bonsai is capable of turning a seedling into a $35 pre-bonsai. And why shouldn't (s)he? Why are you guys so critical of this activity, as though it somehow demeans the person doing it and the art-form? I am finding it tremendously interesting and enjoyable and would encourage anybody starting out to include it in their pursuit of the hobby; maybe even focus on it exclusively for awhile. I've found it really fun!

Continued best regards, Fred

Sure thy can turn that seed into a seedling, then a pre bonsai and finally a masterpiece. Just as long as they have the required knowledge.
One can't simply wish it done.
The masterpiece must be understood before the pieces/parts can be made. )
All I am saying is stop and do some studying before you jump right in. Pick the best you can get before you start.
If that is a slam on anyone then I sincerely apologize. But I do think that you are trying to put words into my mouth.

Ron, Woops, don't want to do that. Happens to me often enough and I don't enjoy the experience!

Fred

The enlighten me my friend.
Just where did I say that bonsai stock had to be expensive. That I looked down on the seed growers.
Just on what page did I say that bonsai had to be done my way. When did I ever say that I am the master of the art.
I think I go back to the beginning of this thread and re-read it all. Maybe I missed something.

Hi Fred,

Some characteristics of poor material involve defects that would take years of development to correct that are (in the opinion of the particular grower/artist) "not worth pursuing." I often find that these defects of permanance offer many of the following negative factors, in no particular order.

NEGATIVE FACTORS

1. Lack of taper (no taper or inverse taper)
2. Lack of movement (straight trunk) or poor movement, which might include interrog-shaped would-be informal uprights.? shapes, Y shapes, etc.
3. Poor root display - could mean one-sided roots or tangled roots.
4. Poor branching, coarse branching, few suitable branches.
5. Lack of aged appearance in branching or bark
6. Unsuitable species
7. Extreme scars, swellings or dead areas that are difficult to disguise or treat as "character elements."
8. Poor general health, including weak growth or perhaps disease.

IS IT WORTH IT?

Please note that most any, or a pair of these defects could be corrected given time and training. Some being easier to correct than others. One can even change the species (6) by grafting; however, the question remains, are the remaining positive attributes worth your time and effort?

MY STOCK / YOUR STOCK

Any given example of "poor stock" for me could be "better stock" for you because you might know a technique or method that will correct the defect easily. It is unlikely that a new enthusiast would have those skills available to him/her.

REDEEMING FACTORS

I will say that if a tree is uniquely outstanding in a few or even a single area, it may redeem several defects. For example:

a) A fantastic deadwood display (aged appearance) could redeem lack of taper, poor health and branching, for example.
b) An impressive taper could offset such defects as scars on the trunk and subtle movement.
c) a tree of rare species or cultivar may be worth developing despite obvious problems involving scars or taper

PROVENANCE AND HISTORIC VALUE

Certain plants may be encountered that are important specimens because of their unique history or succession of ownership. I would still maintain that such trees could be good or bad stock, irrespective of that history.

Hope this helps,

Matt

Hi Walter, Good Luck! I have posted at least a dozen threads on the virtues of buying superior stock. Some just don't get it. Why would any one argue the point of poor under developed stock as a way to achieve bonsai?

One should not consider it "bonsai" till it's ready to be displayed in the pot. Untill then it's just "container gardening"!

Bonsai-al

I've seen your collection! Anything you throw away would be better than I have!!