I am not so much on cooking forums and don't really know what 's going on there. Is it often that one of the cooking pundits is presented this?:

"I went through the municipal garbage cans recently and have accumulated a lot of things which possibly could make a good meal. I have invited my boss and his wife for dinner tonight and ask you, Pundit of Cooking, to give me your best advice how to arrange a wonderful dinner with what I have."

I would love to read the answers!

Cynical? Well, it happens every day in bonsai. For some reason quite a few people think that the art of bonsai consists of making a masterpiece out of garbage.

The reality is this: the art of bonsai consists in learning how to judge and select the best possible material first of all. Sometimes this can even come from the garbage can, but then it is still good material which the master can tell very quickly. If a beginner tries his luck with garbage, he will invariably fail.

Why is it that people save 20 US$ on buying decent material and then spend hours and hours on their most pathetic stock? If one has an honest job it should be possible to receive from 10 to 50 and often much more per hour of work. How long does one work on a bonsai over the years? 10 hours? 100 hours.
Well here is my simple equation: take the number of hours that you think you will work on that material in the future, multiply it by your hourly rate. The result is a sensible sum to spend on raw material to spend your time in a useful manner.

I spend the most time, effort and money on getting the right kind of material. The very best is just about good enough. And then people ask me what to do with what they saved from the garbage can - and want a polite answer on top of that!!
This goes beyond the reasons for political correctness for me.

Somebody's got to tell them. I do!


best regards
Walter Pall

Walter, this is a great topic as it ties together several recent ideas that have been circulating on the forum in the Time thread and others. I suspect that many who consider bonsai a hobby are unwilling to invest a lot of money in quality stock because they consider the quality of their result to be something along the lines of

Bonsai Theory of Sums
Value = [quality of stock] + [effort invested]

when in fact, it is more like this:

Bonsai Theory of Products
Value = [quality of stock] X [effort invested]

Now suppose you begin with poor stock. Let's call it zero value.

In the Theory of Sums, there is the hope that enough time will allow you to create something out of it:

[zero] + [enough effort] = something worthwhile

But in reality, the Law of Products holds thus:

[zero] x [a huge amount of effort] = zero value

Now why is this "lesson" lost on many? I think it is because they lack the perspective of experience. Without the wisdom gained by investing in both poor and good stock and training them for some time, one might feel that the Sums model is accurate. In fact, for little effort invested, the results of both Sums and Products models are actually the same. It is only when a bit of effort is invested that the differences (in the models and in reality) become apparent.

A year or so ago, you posted an interesting thread on a tree that you'd invested two decades or more in development, and still weren't very satisfied with the result. (What can we Learn from This?) Al has done the same in another post: (Double Trunk Maple)

While many bonsai newcomers might be thrilled with either result, both artists understand the shortcomings in these trees that can't be overcome after years of effort. I hope that we can learn from these lessons, and consider that our time and effort is a commodity that should not be discounted, and the best trees come from the best stock.

Regards,

Matt
bonsainomicist

A good question Walter but I am not sure if there is really an answer for it. Not one that will make a lot of sense anyway.
Most people know the value of quality. In most endeavors people will try to get the best tools that they can to do the job.
If one wants to learn golf they usually go about it with a bit of logic. They may, the first time out, borrow a club from a friend and smack that little ball around. But soon they will have a good set of clubs and be taking lessons from the golfing pro.
I don't think they go to the dump to find a set of clubs. They go to the shop on the course and get good "tools" of the trade so to speak. They seek out the golf pro and pay good money for lessons. Here they understand that one will get no where fast with garbage.
But put a bonsai book in front of them. Peak their interest a bit and off they go to the dump ;o)
Now any tree will work. The cheaper the better. No need to buy the proper tools when they already have a pocket knife. Lessons cost too much so lets skip that. Logic is not part of the game here.
But if, as with most things in life, one is content with "this will do" then their trees will wind up looking like they were just slapped together. The way one attacks a project usually affects the outcome.
Hat to say it but for the most part that is the sad state of affairs in the US bonsai arena. No logic.

Walter, I have seen you argue this point in the past and I still disagree with you regarding it. Let me say why.

Awhile back, I saw an article in "Bonsai Today" devoted to a Japanese Black Pine which had been raised from a seed by Masahiko Kimura in Japan. It was twenty some years old and was spectacular. Now I doubt that Mr. K. saw any special qualities in the seed he collected; rather the result reflected what could be accomplished by a man of genius over the course of nearly 3 decades.

Actually, this is only one of many examples I've seen over the years of magnificent trees grown from seed. Quite recently BT had an article on growing JBP from seed that showed wonderful reults achieved in ten to twelve years. The reason stated in the article for growing from seed was that in Japan, many if not most of the really fine specimens growing in the mountains there have already been collected over the years and the demand for good stock can not be satisfied by the natural environment any more. Which, of course, is not the case where you are. You are blessed with many trees that are close to being "natural bonsai". Of course, it makes sense to use them. Many people do not have access to such material, or it is very expesive for them to acquire. My own opinion is that it is not helpful to discourage them from starting bonsai from what IS easily available to them with the caution that it will take them longer to develop their trees.

I am quite sure that if you had only "garbage" (which I take to mean younger material or material with severe defects that will require the tree to be taken back to an earlier stage of development), you would soon be developing trees just as amazing as the ones you do now, but over longer periods of time.

I have seen my own seedlings develop over the limited time I've had them and I am quite sure that given another 3 to 5 years, I will have many trees that, in your hands, could be developed into very fine specimens. You might raise the question, "But why invest so much time and effort when you could have started with something already adequate for initial styling or with the same qualities you took years to develop?". This is a valid point, which I have addressed elsewhere, but is quite a different issue from that of whether immature trees with little to recommend them can or can not be developed over a few or many years into excellent bonsai.

I have friends with a "garbage dog", of uncertain parentage acquired from the local animal shelter. It is very beautiful and as smart and pleasant a dog to be around as I have ever seen. I suppose, in a Water Pall world, it would have been put to sleep the day it came in. I know it has two delighted owners that are very happy it wasn't.

Best regards, Fred

This brings up an interesting point.
How many seeds did he plant and how many did he discard along the way.
What was his bonsai skill level when he planted the seeds. How many different masters did he study under while the seeds were growing.
If he just waited around and not learned the craft how did he know which ones to discard.
If he did take lessons while waiting did he and his teacher just grab any old tree to style. Did they go to K-Mart to get the trees.
In other words just exactly did he do in those 30 years.
During all that time, and all the masterpieces he created, just how many of those were started from just any old tree.
And if he planted say a thousand seeds how many of them wound up as a bonsai and how many were just chucked away.
More than one side to the tale ;o)

Ron, I don't know the answers to your questions, but I'm not sure how much difference they make. From the article I saw on the development of JBP seedlings, it was clear that if the proper techniques are applied, there aren't very many trees developed from seed that can't be developed into more than adequate bonsai. Since any tree, no matter how flawed, can be taken back to a stump, it seems to me that this must hold for most other trees as well.

It is clear that Walter and many others who are masters of the art of bonsai are very good at selecting trees that offer the shortest possible route to the creation of first rate bonsai. There is not a doubt in my mind, however, that if you folks chose to work with less mature or flawed trees, it would only be a matter of time before you produced trees just as good from less mature or lower quality stock. If bonsai culture is to be viewed as a purely economic activity with market economics determing not just best but all practice, your position makes perfect sense. But it is based on economics, not what is feasible, or even desirable from a different perspective.

Folks like you and Walter have a horse in this race. You and Walter sell material as well as develop trees for sale from it. The notion that the "right" way to do bonsai depends upon superior (ie expensive) material is supportive of the role you folks play in the Bonsai Community. It reminds me of the relationship of professional priests and ministers to most of organized religion, believing as they do that religion can't possibly succeed without them being economically supported by their community of believers. I wish you and Walter nothing but the best and hope fervently that all the fiolks like you succeed even beyond your wildest expectations. However, I don't think that your vision of bonsai is the only "right" one nor even the best possible one for everybody.

With best regards, Fred

I've been on walks in some of the gardens around Toyohashi and along the Hokkaido trail with M. Matsuya, a well-known bonsai master and prize winner in Japan. I believe it was a relative or teacher of his who developed the accelerated black pine training guide excerpted in that Bonsai Today issue. In any case. Mr Mitsuya did collect some seed along the way, and passed over dozens of trees in favor of those with the best characteristics of interesting bark and deep, green needles. Now seed doesn't come true to a single parent, much like a child, but if you can choose one of the parents, why not do so? The Mikawa variety of black pine is especially popular as a seed source.

I don't think that the theory of beginning with the best stock precludes using seed, layer or other methods. It simply means that in whatever you do, use the best stock that time and effort will allow. If it's seed, go with the best seed source!

Regards,

Matt

No argument from me on this statement. Could not agree more.

Speaking as a novice in this art, I completely understand everything you experts are saying. However, I still purchase the 1-gal and 5-gal stock from the local nursery and chain stores. I reallize these will likely never be a masterpiece. But I first need to make sure I can take care of these trees before I spend 100's of dollars on quality stock. So I buy the cheap stuff to learn and practice. I don't have the disposable income to routinely kill $200 stocks because I don't know what I'm doing.

Now, if few of these "garbage" turn out to have promise (in the eye of a beginner like me), then perhaps I would post a picture and ask for an advise or a virtual. I would not be offended if the advise I receive is "forget about this loser." However, I would like this to be followed up with "this stock lacks ____ and need ____" This way, although I would be disappointed, I would learn something.

I think I speak for most beginners who are trying to get started. Thanks.

Fred.
First let me say that I never used the word expensive. I did say the best material available to you. Must have been someone else that said that other stuff. )
Secondly, as much as I hate to say it not all trees will become good bonsai. No matter how long one waits. Time does in fact not heal all problems.
What I did allude to is the fact that selecting something that will work only comes from knowledge and knowledge only comes from study.
Now as to the rest of what you said. I felt flattered the you linked my name with the likes of Walter but I am not too sure if I am not a bit insulted by the rest of it.
I'm not angry but a bit disappointed that you think I am in bonsai only for the money. Or that I can only do bonsai from pristine material.
I just refuse to start off with material that won't work. I am a bit picky about the trees that I use. I spend time in the selection process.
Some will say that it shows in my work. But everyone that knows me will tell you how picky I am when it comes to selecting what I start off with. I may screw it all up but I start off with the best (not necessarily the most expensive) material I can find.
I learned how select by learning what will work. I don't waste my time trying to make a lost cause work.
You of course may do things differently.
If you are happy with your trees then you must be doing bonsai the right way for you. Enjoy