Critique, Criticism and Rep Points

I have noticed a trend here on the forum to react to any less than praise with quick and harsh rebuttals, criticism and negative reputation points. There is something inherently wrong with this trend and I think that it is detrimental to all involved. The following thoughts of mine have been compiled over the last few months and I thought I’d share them here.

You asked for it

When one decides to post pictures of their work on line they automatically open the door for critique, the only way around this is, of course, not to post, which would solve nothing and help no one.

No one creates excellence every time. Not songwriters, not novelist, not painters, not potters, and certainly not bonsaist. There is a lot of fantastic talent that frequents this forum and I’m sure every single one will admit to failures, this is a fact of life. If they do not post their failures it is only because they can tell the difference and choose to post only what they consider to be their best.

So what are the reasons we post pictures of our work here? Do we post to show off our efforts? Do we post to seek advice? To seek praise? Do we post to show that we are part of the whole? Do we post to give examples? Regardless, whenever we post anything we put it up for scrutiny by the members here and not everyone will give standing ovations. Some will learn from your post, some will be moved, some will see the flaws, some will offer advise and some will stay silent.

The real question is what will you gain by posting a picture of your work. Myself, I hope to gain knowledge, if every single person gave me praise, I learned nothing, and in fact I was harmed. You see, there is nothing that is perfect; everything has room for some improvement. I can walk away with some suggestions and observations that I may or may not take to heart, but I am left thinking. Or, I can walk away thinking I have the perfect tree, which as I said, would only harm me in the long run. I would quickly reach the point where I thought I could do no wrong and when somebody offered suggestions I would respond with arrogance and hatred.

The Emperor has no clothes

Remember the childhood story of the Emperor who was bamboozled by some con artists into buying clothing that only the true of heart could see? Everyone was afraid to say they couldn’t see any clothes for fear of being found out? I have seen this phenomenon right here on this forum.

I have seen some very talented people here post sub-standard work. Big deal, we all do it, as I said, nobody creates excellence every time. However it amazes me how quickly people line up to give praise, too quick in fact to have taken the time to actually view the picture or to let the image sink in. Too quickly to have given the subject the time and study it deserves. As the artist, I would have been insulted. What are they praising, the artist based on past successes or the art shown? Or are they, like the people in the story, just afraid of being found out?

Just don’t tell me “good work”, or “excellent job”, tell me if you like it or if you don’t then tell me why! I want to know if I’m running around naked! Please offer intelligent suggestions, good or bad, at least I know you actually thought about it.

I’m not a master, far from it, but I can’t imagine that they would feel any differently. Can you imagine how many times they have read the word “excellent”? I wonder if they yearn for some good old fashion discussion on why they did that instead of this?

The point is that just because the person posting the picture has shown great talent and has posted some masterpieces in the past, does not mean the past carries over to the new post. Every creation is new and every one must be judged on it’s own merit, not the reputation of the creator. If the master posts crap then he must be told, to do anything less is only to disrespect them and their accomplishments.

In my opinion

These three words have got to be the biggest crock of crap ever uttered by anyone. They are used as though they justify anything that is said. Yes people have opinions and yes, like anything else they can be wrong, misinformed, unintelligent, harmful, and just plain stupid. Just because it is an opinion does not mean it is right or okay. Like we all say, “opinions are like compost piles, everybody’s got one and they all stink” or something like that.

I like “based on my experience” or “according to X” much better, it opens the door for intelligent conversation with a means to an end. The opinion cop out is old and tired.

I’ll show them

So you posted a bonsai that you thought was world class and someone offers the suggestion that it needs a few years in the ground to thicken up that pencil trunk. Instead of considering the suggestion, you run straight to the reputation button and slap the person with some negative rep points. There, your tree is now a masterpiece, feel better?

My feelings on the reputation system are varied, sometimes I think of it as a popularity contest, sometimes I think it is used as a arse kissing device, sometimes as a retaliatory device, and sometimes for what I think is the best way.

I have defined my use of the rep system and am trying to use it in the following manner:

Good rep points
Giving good advice
Adding to a conversation
Posting informative threads
Great attitude
Taking good advice
Helping

Giving bad advice
Bad rep points
Posting uninformative threads
Bad attitude
Distracting from a conversation
Ignoring good advice
Complaining

Things that shouldn’t send you to the rep button:
I like them
I hate them
They say nice things about me
He dared critiqued my masterpiece
I’m having a bad day
I don't agree with them

I think the rep system can be a good tool for the forum as well as give us all a way to measure our efforts, if it is not abused. Of course you can always just turn it off.


Just a few thoughts...

Will Heath

Will,

Excellent post. Well written and well said.

My only addition would be the manner in which the criticism is given. There are constructive ways to say "Hey, this needs work", and there are destructive ways to say "Hey, this needs work".

Again, excellent post!

Jeffrey

Will,

The reputation system has turned into somewhat of a novelty with me. I very rarely even look at mine anymore, or anyone else's, for that matter. Once a person has been here for a while, the rep system is almost useless, since we all get to know how each other feels and thinks by reading the posts. For the newbies, well, I highly recommend that they READ the MANY back posts in order to get a feel for how each person thinks and responds to various topics. This little bit of research is infinitely more useful than any reputation system ever will be. Of course, if they are too lazy or impatient to do this bit of reading, then they will probably not be around long, anyway.

Jeffery,
You are so right about the quality of the tone in a critique. Some people are VERY sensitive to negative comments, and cannot handle harsh criticizm. For example, instead of telling a person, "That tree is crap and will never be a good bonsai," you might say, "That tree could be used as a good learning specimen, but next time try to pick a better quality starter tree. For information on what makes good stock, take a look at ......."

Anyway, we must all understand that each of us is different and will respond differently to almost every situation. Just because you would rather someone tell you that your tree is horrible in a very blunt fashion (and why it is) does not mean that someone else wants or can handle such bluntness. (I, personally, prefer the bluntness, but I am VERY thick-skinned.)

Regards,
John

I really don't mind blunt either, as long as I know that it is for the betterment of me. If it is just someone being a jerk, I don't take kindly to that. But then again, I really despise rude people. But there is a HUGE difference between criticism and being rude.

I worry about newbies. While I do have about 2-3 years solid under my belt, I am still in the beginning stages. Kindness will develop those newer to the hobby more than rude or curt comments will. We are direct representations of the hobby itself. If we are rude jerks, what does that say about the hobby? I want to bring people into the hobby, not shoo them away.

Jeffrey

Good post. Happy stories, noodle salad.

In a conciliatory, new year, new leaf tone, I plan to be nice!

(What choice do I have? I've only been at this for a few years myself!)

Sorry, Will, but I'm not on your wavelength with rep points. I love to hand them out like candy on halloween.

Here's my system:

Good Rep Points:
I like you
I like what you said
You're new here and it's nice to say hi
Everyone deserves them
-and-
What the heck, they don't mean a thing, so here's a picture of a rabbit with a pancake on it's head


Bad Rep Points:
You are being an @$$H013 with what you just wrote, and most likely a couple other members are being @$$H013$ on this very same thread which has turned into a contest about whose @$$H013 smells worse anyway, so they probably got some negative points from me also.

No Rep Points:
I forgot to hit the rep button

I haven't given out much on the negative side, since mostly people are all right.

As for the critique, IMHO fire away and don't hold back. I agree I will gain nothing from false praise. Just don't be an @$$H013 about it. Pencil trunk, slingshot, mallsai, twig and "$#!+" may be insulting, but they may also be applicable.

pootsie

Hi Will,

Great points about posts and reponses.

They make a lot of sense, irrespective of how people use the reputation system (which I do not think of as particularly valuable - though it does let me know when I've pushed someone's buttons. )

Best wishes,
Carl

I can't help but to notice the correlation between these two statements.


Thank you,

Will

My reputation system is akin to Pootsie's. Just as an aside, since it is also mentioned quite heavily, is the rating system both in the galleries and for the threads. Frankly, I don't really pay much attention to thread rating, but I can remember that some were sensitive to this. The Gallery, however, here you can rate a display on a scale of 1-10, you can also leave a comment of your choosing. Before you just leave a number and don't bother to write anything, just ask yourself, if this was your display, how useful would you find that numerical rating?

Also, why does that damn rep thingie want me to "spread" some more around, how much more spreading do I have to do, before I can let the Crow know he has pushed my buttons again?

One benefit I see in the reputation system is that it acts as a deterrent for instigators. If someone all of a sudden disables it, it might be worthwile to find out why. There may be a completely valid reason, such as "the user in question does not believe in its usefulness", or "it can be a distraction", or "it provides a breeding ground for various conflicts of interest".

But it may be because the user in question broke some basic codes of behaviour or gives questionable advice.

Either way, it may contain useful information.

It is also a gauge of the overall sentiment towards that user. Knowing how others feel about you is not a bad thing.

In real life encounter there are endless factors regulating how we behave. On the net it may become a lawless jungle with lots of hit-and-run behaviour unless we introduce suble regulating factors such as this. I know Matt is holding the whip but it is too big of a job for him to do it all.