Bonsainut, I too have had Naka look me in the eye. You can tell what he is thinking before he even utters a word. Those eyes, those searing dark eyes.

A word or two about being critical. EVERYONE is a critic. If you have told someone about a great bonsai web page, or told someone of a great movie you just saw. Maybe you are a Ford man and tell everyone you see that you have no use for Chevrolet? Well, you are being a critic. It''s unavoidable in everyday things that you do. Just deciding to prune or pinch your bonsai is a critical assessment. If you did not make a critical decision, your tree would just turn back into a bush.

Leesa, trust me having over 800 posts makes you nothing except a gas bag. I just love to talk bonsai, and it's not the thing that one can do anytime they want, except here, which fits my lifestyle quite well. I too have not given responses to many trees posted here simply because I can offer no advice that would be of any help. Sometimes it's a matter of waiting for growth, or maybe a layer or a grafting issue. These things take time and can not be solved in a few posts in an evening. Sometimes a virtual of how the tree might look is all that can reassure someone that they are on the right track.

It makes me no nevermind if someone wants to post their newly potted stick tree. Hey, everyone has to start somewhere, and I agree with that. But it's the outcries for help after that are hard to deal with on a level conducive to good bonsai. I would like to see a post whereby someone has bought the material with something in mind, and they have done an initial pruning on it towards that look. It may be a pencil size tree or it may be the most beautiful trunk that one has ever seen. At least in this way good solid help in the direction the person is going can be given. You won't see 4 or 5 virtuals of every bonsai style. Just the style the artist is going for. Makes sense to me.

I guess it's not so much the size as it is reckless abandon when it comes to buying material. Sort of a "you can make a bonsai out of anything" attitude. Well you can, I guess it just comes down to your taste in art.


Bonsaial

Jay: Thank you for the kind words,I will try to show you correct.

Leesa: Thanks for posting in, I like the way that you express your thoughts. It is true that most of us have gone through a honeymoon of sorts. I can remember my first two years when every little bush on the side of the road looked like bonsai. I think that it is a disservice to bonsai in general to destroy this kind of enthusiasm with a brutally honest critique of there work. A person can however bring the novice along with honest advice about techniques that they can learn to improve their tree. Now we are back to this fundamental belief that I hold, if a person is going to talk about the faults that a tree has then he or she should be able to also give some idea of how to correct these faults. In this manner a person has some hope that their work can be improved and some knowlege of how they might go about that.

Rene: Your 2 cents, as valid as it is has one predominant problem. This is the problem with roots and nursery grown material. The vast majority of stock grown in the nursery industry is plagued with uncorrectable roots. The exception to this are tree species that have a very fibrous root system or species that airlayer easly.

Jay: I also agree with what you are suggesting, I will see about fixing my status.

Bonsainut:If as you say, you are given the positives of your work and some way to correct the negitives, it seems to me that you would be able to stand up to a much more honest assment of your tree.

Jay said:

"I would hope that if a rank newbie, my self and a very advanced member all posted a similar tree with a problem, the newbie would be treated with kid gloves... I would be treated not as easily and the advanced member would receive the most critical tone."

Jay, that makes perfect sense to me and I would hope that less experienced growers would be treated that way. Sad to say but at times I've observed the opposite. Not so much around here but on that other forum, I've seen people critique names instead of trees. What I mean is that it seems to depend on who you are. I've seen people with the "right name" post trees with obvious faults yet they get applause all the way around but let a newbie post a tree with the same faults and they will either be totally ignored or someone will tear them a new one. Go figure!

Tony

I guess I have to say this over again: A critic does not, And I repeat does not have to possess any bonsai skills whatsoever to let you know that your tree has faults.

If you remember my thread about the Golden Mean, the Fibbonaci sequence and things like that. There are basic artistic rules that have to be present in bonsai to make the design a good one. It is not up to the critic to have a better answer for the tree. That is just a defensive posture to the fact that someone has questioned your work. Having a defensive attitude towards criticism will never allow the artist to grow. If you are already the best, than criticism would seem like an insult.

Having an open mind is just as much of a tool as any pruner in your bag. A person that knows nothing of how to keep bonsai or how to water bonsai, or how to care for bonsai, can look through a picture book and tell you which trees are the best. Granted this will be that person's opinion, and though you might not agree with that assessment, you still could respect their decision.

This is what a judge at a bonsai show does each time they are asked to pick the "Best of Show". How many times has the best of show tree been the worst tree at the show? I have never said the critic is the final word here. But a critic can bring up points that may have been missed by the artist. These are points that the artist can improve upon, or thumb his nose at. It's up to the artist. But... if enough critics are saying the same thing, the artist might want to take his own critical look.


Bonsaial

Al: If your theroy is correct for us, then we should see you at the next major show openly criticisizing Kathy Shaners trees or Matts trees, doing the same things that you have been doing on this forum. My point being this, if you are going to critic someones tree to help them improve the material, then you should do it in a way that does not leave that person feeling angry. You should also do this in a way that leaves the person with the ability to feel good about what he or she is trying to acomplish.

I feel that I have the right to discuss this openly with you becaus up to this point you have only used your "critical eye" on my trees on this forum. You also started this thread because of the way that you hammered the tree that I used in the workshop thread. This is not to say that you have not offered your openion on other peoples work, it's just that in my case you seem to have taken it to a new level.

It is my openion that if this is not political then it should be the same for everyone and not pulled out for someone that you feel needs personal attention.

!

Al - I missed your point on this the first time. I agree - you and Rip (who must really like you since you manage to get him so agitated with your comments - reminds me of my husband and I) have both raised the issue of buying questionable material. . I guess the only comment I can make is that maybe we could offer some ideas on "how to select material".. I may even start a thread! Gosh - I am going to be a mastercraftsman in no time now that you got me talking!

Seriously - your 800 plus posts does not make you a windbag - in fact - I look forward to reading your comments. I think you bring a great deal to the forum and I thank you for that...

Leesa

A great deal of hot air, maybe.



Rip: I think people do critique even masterpiece quality trees at shows and exhibitions . Earl (who is one of the nicest people you'll meet anywhere) and I did a lot of critiquing as we walked through the Pacific Rim collection.

Much of it positive: "How on earth do they keep the foliage so compact?!!?" "What a marvelous trunk line!" "Can you believe that was only collected 7 years ago?"

Some that could be taken as negative: "Look at that wire - it's cutting deeply into the branch," "I don't like the exagerated taper on this tree," "This tree doesn't really look right in that pot. Why do you think they chose that one?"

But mostly, we were just observing, and the judgement positive or negative is something that was really beside the point.
"Look - they've gone back to two sets of needle on each branch." "Their soil mix seems to be about 1:1:1 lava:akadama:gravel on this tree." "This is one of Johnny Uchida's trees? Wow!"

We learned a heck of a lot by doing so. Earl called a number of things to my attention that I otherwise would have missed, and hopefully visa versa. I think that if curator Dave DeGroot had been listening over our shoulders, he wouldn't have been insulted in the least. He might have found most of our remarks to be obvious, a few to be wrongheaded, some to be naive, and maybe - I would like to believe - one or two to be astute. But I don't think that he would have felt that we had no right to be talking, nor would he have grabbed either of us by the shoulder and demanded that we put up our own trees or shut up about his.

-Old Mister, who's getting up there in terms of post numbers himself.

I was going to try and do this whole thread without typing; Rip. but.. I guess that won't work.

First of all I have not attacked your "trees". I have made some personal solicited comments about "one" tree that was up for discussion in a working environment. I think if you reread the workshop post, and only read my comments, you will find that I offered many suggestions. I felt that the tree was not junk as "you" had put it, and I commented that the root base was very good. I just think the material needed some grow out time to improve the taper. Simple as that. I think you will find that "your" tone was defensive and not in the least bit open to criticism.

Your years as a bonsai person has made you on a scale a little different than most people. You have given much information on this forum. Very good information. There are people that think you are a very good bonsai artist. Some of the trees that you have posted to not represent the artistry that one would expect from a person of your advanced bonsai years. While most of the type questions that you answer have to do with propagation techniques and things like that, if that is where your expertise lies, then that's where you should shine. And you do. Some day you may well get the chance to walk a show with me. Maybe with some other opinionated rascals that I hang out with. You have no idea what walking through a show with me is like. Trust me, I have ripped Kathy a time or two. Ask Bill Hashimoto, my old friend. We walk the shows all the time.

You have posted many things on this forum that I may find questionable, but have never commented on. Trust me, it's not all about you.

BTW, I invite anyone to highlight any part of the Trident Maple Workshop post, that comes across as HAMMERING.

Then we'll critique it!

Bonsaial

There was a lot of talk about hammering and tree bashing going on in the Pine Trunk Thickening thread.

Regards,

Matt

Leesa said: Al - I missed your point on this the first time. I agree - you and Rip (who must really like you since you manage to get him so agitated with your comments - reminds me of my husband and I)

I've often wondered if Al and Rip were married. To each other I mean.


Just kidding. But you have to admit, you guys really like to nag each other.

Tony