While the Kimura thread went painfully south, I feel that the forum should be opened to the subject of criticism !

Bonsai is all about criticisim. While everyone "says" that they do bonsai for themselves, this forum would not be too active if everyone did not have an ego. Pics of trees are posted here for the reason of;
1. Recieving a critique
2. maybe a virtual
3. Being told that you have a great tree.
4. Am I pruning in the right direction.
5. What should I do next?


Without criticisim how would one know that you are getting better? If you post a tree here today and post it here a year from now, and it still looks the same, I would hope that most people would tell that person that it needs help or they should just stick it in the ground till they are more knowledgeable. To keep giving a person gentle strokes does not always help the person develop good bonsai. No one wants to be told that their tree sucks. That is damaging. But you don't have to dance around the truth either.

I see lots of pencil size bonsai posted. While this is a good way to start with growing stock, it can hardly be called good bonsai. The desire to get the tree into a suitable bonsai pot can be overwhelming. Yet, newbie artist need to realize that the trunk just will not thicken fast enough in a pot that has confined the roots. Trees such as these need to be grown in large containers or the ground.

The subject of monotary budget comes up occasionally. I myself have been influenced by this roadblock. It was not untill my later years that I could afford more expensive larger stock. And even some of this has been reduced to shohin size trees, to make the trunk ratio better. Trees 14" to 18" tall look better when the trunk is in the 2" size bracket. This makes the stock skyrocket in price, but the final product is much better. If a person wants to put a pencil size seedling in a pot, and call it bonsai, for the most part it would have to be about 3" tall. This would be the maximum size that would start to have some trunk ratio.

I have seen posts such as: I just bought this plant at the nursery, I know its not to good but what can I make out of it?

Bonsaial hard criticism would be: why did you spend good money on this in the first place? Why should someone here have to try to design a plant from stock you allready know is not good? Why not look for plants that can be made into suitable bonsai with minimal pruning. Begin to look for plants at the nursery that have an outline that can be seen within the nursery can. Branches low down on the trunk, with no pom pom foliage, and interesting trunk curves that can be utilized. Notice I said utilized. Don't just buy a plant cause the trunk is all bent up. It has to flow and be harmonious with the plant.

So... Bonsai is all about criticism. Good and bad. There is an art to giving criticism too! Choosing the right words can be hard to do when giving a negative. We have allready seen its painfull effects elsewhere on this forum.

If you think a tree is beautiful, you have allready criticized it!! You have become a critic. While a person may loath the critic, you sure could't do art without them.

Have fun, Bonsaial

Dang it Al, stop posting stuff I agree with!
We never get to argue this way.

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That was a great post, with great advice about how to make this forum a perfect place for us all to improve our talents as bonsai artists and connoisseurs. And I'm going to stick to it, even if it makes me unpopular 'round these parts. The only thing I can add is this: make use of the private message system if you need to. If there's something you want to say, it doesn't have to be said in public. Stuff that will be generally useful to everyone should be said in public; stuff that isn't necessarily relevent can sent elsewhere - and a sharp critique can always be tempered by judiciously timed private message.

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The rest of post wasn't really appropriate for Al's topic, so I've moved it to a separate thread.

All the best,
Old Mister Crow

Al, the Kimura post was pretty good actually. Don't we wish all of them could be so honest. There were a couple of misunderstandings along the way but that is to be expected any time you get a group of unlike minds together. But what would bonsai be if we all thought alike?

Darn it, your right. Usually if a tree looks like crap I don't tell the person. And you might say that this is giving them false hope. I just have not learned to do it tactfully, so I leave it to you.

Many times I can look at a tree and see [in my minds eye] what I would do to improove it but I have a difficult time expressing it in written text. I've got to learn how to do those virtuals!

Tony

Hi all.... back from a week in the Adirondacks... cooool and beautiful. Just started to catch up on the forum and noted this post. Al.... you are correct, I am here to share and learn. For someone to tell me "your tree is nice but needs a few years to develop" is fine if they mean it. But if they really mean "That thing will never be anything, trunk chop it and pray" well that is different. Yes, we should be as gentle as possible when we really take a part a tree.... but if the person is asking......

As my knowledge and training progress, I find that many a tree I purchased or collected a year or two ago are no longer to my likeing. So much so, that I think I would not get it today. That is wonderful!! I have learned from my choices (mistakes).

When I first started I looked for the cheapest of materials, and of course got the cheapest of materials. My thought was even if there isn't much here I can learn. It did help me learn (and still does) how to keep'em alive and how to prune and train them.
Yes, some where put into Bonsai pots.... I will probably remove them in the spring and place in the ground or into grow boxes.

As my education and experience increased I started collecting material that in my opinion will have the ability, if properly handled, to become something someday (hopefully sooner than later). I look more at the Nebari, trunk movement, taper and size.
I am progressing.

Now if someone sees something they would like to improve in one of my trees, they tell me. If I am so sure of the direction I am going, I will defend my thoughts... If I feel the critque is valid I will look to alter my course.....

Al.... I am one of those who do Bonsai for myself. Butttt.... with the help and direction and yes, criticism of others, I do a better job of doing it for myself. What some need to know is that those trees that they see that are near perfect to their eyes have followed rules (some tighter than others)... and that by learning from those who have gone down the road already is ' a good thing'.

As you all know, I don't agree. I have watched critiques on this forum tear down one piece of material while in another thread speaking in glowing terms about their own material that has some of the same faults as the material that they are critiquing.

If a person is going to be a critic they should at least be impartial. Sadly, this is not the case. I find critics so full of themselves that they seldom actually come off as helpful. Each of us, as bonsai caretakers and artists, are on a different level. We should all have a measure of respect for the efforts of those below and above. I also have had to spend the night in prayer and contemplation before posting an answer to some of the things that have been said on this forum.

Last, if you want an opinion, you will ask for it and if you want help you will also ask for it. Unsolicited tree bashing by someone with a mouth full of words that sound good is of no help, but sadly a good discription of a critic.

UUGGH, I have become what I detest!!!! A CRITIC!!!!

Rips.... you will always be a critic and (in my opinion) an extremely careing person.... you can be both.!!

As for the ability of a critic to bash (a little strong, but lets go with it) and then show one of their own with similar or at least glaring fault.... human nature! I admit to seeing my own work through rose colored glasses. I'm sure most of us do! Thats where the forum comes in. If anyone sees something that looks incorrect or in need of another direction, they should point it out! If we are truely interested in doing better work with our trees we should listen! As for the tone of the critique, it should be tempered! Especially tempered by the ability level of the artist being critiqued. I place the label 'novice' by my posts. I do this for two reasons..... 1- to let others know that I ain't no expert..... go with my advise and thoughts as you see fit. 2- to let others know that I 'ain't no expert' give me advise knowing my present knowledge level is at the novice grade.

I would hope that if a rank newbie, my self and a very advanced member all posted a similar tree with a problem, the newbie would be treated with kid gloves... I would be treated not as easily and the advanced member would receive the most critical tone.

I would hope the three would all get the same advise and that even the "pro" would be treated with respect but critic is important... it is (one of) the yardsticks, meter for those inclined, we use in our lives.

And yes.... yes..... far to often the words used are far to cutting for posted material on a board like this....

Do others agree? or am I just being too winded and wordy for this topic!

OK Al - now you got me talking! I have been "lurking" on this website for several months now - you can tell that by my "neophyte" rank. By the way Matt - forgive me - but ranking someone by the number of posts is somewhat of a misnomer - number of posts do not necessarily reflect a level of expertise - they simply represent one's willingness to express an opinion. This may result in attaching more weight to someone's comments than is merited - which could well be a disservice to a beginner asking for advise who may not appreciate the difference. I am oftern reluctant to express an opinion because I think that it has already been said - or - maybe I don't want to be unkind. Or - hey - who am I to comment? I realize, however, that I am not contributing much to the forum by taking this approach. On the other hand - I would like to think that when someone offers their comments - it comes from more than "what I have read or heard" or "heck - give it a try - maybe it will work" with the implcation that the writer has not even tried his/her own advise or the good guy stuff like "I like your tree" or "great tree" which implies more than it should in some cases (IMHO - of course).

I am glad someone finally said it. Like many others on this forum - I was initially attracted to bonsai by the cute little trees in the gorgeous pots. OK - maybe it's a "girl" thing - but I see lots of guys (including you) are in to the pots, too. It took a while to realize that my "sproggles" or "twigs" as they have been referred to, were not really bonsai. It took even longer to resign myself to the fact that it was going to take much longer to create a bonsai of reasonable quality. Do I wish someone had "helped" me earlier? I don't know if I would have been ready to listen or if I would have understood.

Should we make these observations to someone who has just bought their first mallsai and is totally jazzed and buying books and lots of "twigs" and putting them in pots and just so enthusiastic. And - at that point - do they really want or even appreciate that level of honesty?? I have had the opportunity over the years to attend conferences, bonsai club meetings and workshops where instructors (sensei's) help you with your trees. In many cases you are paying $$$ for their advise and help. Do these "professionals" tell you that your tree isn't worth your time or theirs or the cost of the workshop to work on? No. I have tried to get brutal honesty - by asking them "is this a keeper?" or " should I look for better material?" Almost without exception - they say " Well - it will take a few years and maybe you can graft a branch or regrow this one or...." I have learned to take a number of trees and try to gauge by their reaction which one is "worth" working on. Are the sensei's doing us a favor by not being more honest? I have gone so far as say - "look - I am not attached to this tree - I am asking for an honest assessment". Yet - in a general forum - not while working with an individual - many sensei's and experts will suggest that you should "limit the number of your bonsai" - "pick the best ones - no more than 25" - "put your effort in to the good ones - the not so good material takes more effort and you don't get it back".... and so on. So how do you learn what is worth keeping if they won't help you?? I think we all learn over time to judge what is good and what is not - but hey - I was asking them! Is that what the beginners who post their latest "baby" on this forum want? How do they learn - if no one is willing to be brutally honest? I admit that my response to some of the "twig" postings on this forum has been to grin and recall my enthusiasm at that time in my "bonsai honeymoon" - and not comment postively or negatively. Maybe that is not what they want - but how do you know? The last thing I want to do is rain on their parade - when they are so excited and enthusiastic.... Al - I hope your comments lead to a more honest and useful discourse on the posted material.


I think of it as a journey - on a long road - enjoy the scenery!

Leesa

Hi,

I agree about the twigs andsoforth. On the other hand I don't think you should buy expensive stock as a beginner. I did. I was at the Gingko awards almost a year ago, and was so overwelmed with al the beautiful trees that I bought a five needle pine that wasn't too cheap. It died on me. I won't buy any expensive trees anymore until I'm sure I can take care of them. But in between the twigs any the big $$ trees is a lot of nice material for the newbie. Look in your or someone elses garden for some conifers to play around with. You can experiment and won't have to much of a problem if it dies. I've seen some nice junipers with a reasonable trunk at the garden center for a nice price. Try these first.

just my 2 cents

rgds, René

Leesa, For one, I agree with your opinion on the "ranking system" by posts. I have changed mine and you should too. If those of us useing the forum would give, just a little more info, I think we would be in a lot better position to deal with each other. Yes, by ranking ourselves there is room for error. I believe I am a novice.... perhaps you may think I give myself to much credit or that I an better, but it is at least an honest opinion I hold!

To know by looking at the left side of a post the persons ability.... his/her geographic location... USDA zone and yes the amount of posts are good to know.

Really it is not that hard or is it that terrible to let out a little bit of who we are to each other. We don't need to know each others age, sex, or other non-bonsai items....although it doesn't hurt!

Knowledge is wonderful.....and informative!!!!!
So everybody...give a little........please!

Getting back to the critic thing, I always use my favorite bonsai teacher as a guide.
Mr John Naka always starts out with the positives of a tree. Then he looks you in the eye and tells you the truth... in his opinion and it is always humble.
You cant ever go wrong if you are truly trying to help someone, out of love for the hobby or people in general.