It's All About Six

You have just found a new bonsai disscussion forum. BonsaiEXPERTS.com

1.Eagerly you sign up only to find that the rules state that you must have six years' experience in successfully growing bonsai to sign up.

2.To post a picture, one must first supply the administrator with six photos of bonsai in at least six of the bonsai forms.

3.To reply to a thread about any aspect of bonsai technique, one must first show six successful endeavors within that technique.

4.To reply to a thread about three point displays, one would have to furnish six complete photos of successful photographic three point displays.

5.To reply to any thread about artistic bonsai, one would have to furnish six photos of his/her own artistic bonsai styled by poster.

Well you get the idea. If your going to give advice or opinion, you should at least have done the exact same thing at least 6 times. Would this be a fun place? It would for me.

How many here could actually post here? I could, a lot!

How many on the forum post replies on technique with a real understanding and plenty of firsthand knoweledge? The 5 examples above are not that much for some of us here on the forum. For some, they could not even sign up on a site such as this fictious site. I know I come here to see examples of some advanced technique, maybe a three point occasionally, or even a picture of a really great tree now and then. They have been far and few between lately.

This a bonsai discussion site, not a grammer edjakation site, nor a site to get edjacated in grammer. I could care less how one writes as long as I can understand the poster. Forget the rep points they mean nothing. Show me some work. You want my respect and call a spade a spade with me, show me what you can do! A bonsai site should be filled with pictures and discussion should ensue about those photos. I can understand why IBC has a strict photo policy. It keeps the thread on track. If it starts to wander, the administrator can put it back on track. You want to talk about art, post some art. Then you can talk about it with firsthand knowledge. Talking about art and doing art are so far from each other it's not even funny. Wait a minute, that is funny! Walter Pall does not have to talk about art, he lets his work do the talking for him. Most artists have no need for talking art, they just do it.

When talking about anything, "if you throw enough BS at the wall, some of it is bound to stick sooner ot later."

I wonder just what the future will hold for those in their first 2 to 4 years of bonsai? Will they still have the same points of view in the future that they hold now? What about 10, 15 or 20 years down the road? Maybe Suiseki will seem best at that point.

Al Keppler

__________________
A tree a day...thats all we ask.

Al,

As always, thought-provoking. The problem is I'm not 100% if this is in parody form, or if you really mean it.

I'm in between saying "well done" or sending you a site for discounts on lithium.

Decision time: Well done Al. Keep our minds sharp.


John

There's a lot of truth in what you say here, Al.

Sometimes there are too many words. There's a chap on here who doesn't have much to say for himself but when he posts a virtual it is worth a thousand words.

I can remember not long after I signed up there was a thread about a little mallsai chinese elm that someone posted up. It wasn't a world beating bonsai but the thread ended up running for days, and pages of posts, lots of ideas kicking around and no ego massaging.

I wonder if people have maybe become a little wary of participating for fear of getting into a long-winded argument about something and nothing.

Regards,

Chris.

Sounds like you've defined yourself a project there Al. I love to see good trees and benefit from the discussion, so I'd visit the site - as long as you're willing to let me read it. Can I ask a question now and then?

Bonsaiexperts.com would cater to a frustration frequently expressed here by some, but will be a relatively lonely site. Most of us wouldn't meet your qualifications to participate (I can just barely meet #1, and can meet #3 for a couple of techniques), but then, that may be your goal.

Seriously, I assume your point was to stimulate the posting and discussion of more mature bonsai, which I would wholeheartedly support. I would contribute, but having just satisfied criterion #1, I have few trees that will increase the quality of the postings.

Brian

Mr. Al this is certainly very thought provoking...Like Brian I would do ok with the first qualifaction, however I did not take photos in the past of trees or techniques...I am trying to keep a photo record of much work I am doing now, but would still need a few years to meet some of the requirements...I do agree with your thoughts about one posting photos of techniques they are using, particularly if somewhat different than traditionally accepted...Even though I could not post, it would be exciting and educational to read such a forum...



Nice comment Mr. Chris, the important word being 'argument'...This forum has not always been about defending ones opinion page after page after page, but it certainly seems to have become just that...There was a time when one stated their opinion, advice, or experience, and if another member did not agree they would state their own opinion, advice, or experience, and it would be left to the reader to determine from the posts whether or not they agreed or disagreed with either poster...Now it seems most threads end up several pages long with nothing but bickering back and forth, usually about nothing but arguing over things that do not have anything to do with bonsai or horticulture, but instead are about ego's and I am right you are wrong...

Some of the members seem to almost have a 'vulture' attitude...If one member posts a response or starts a thread you can be assured within a matter of a few hours it will be followed by another post stating why they are wrong or questioning the original poster's qualifications and sources [funny how these secondary posts can always be predicted as to which member will be making them...actually NOT funny]...

Mr. Al's imiginary forum does sound a bit elitist, but I think these sort of 'pissing' contests would not exist in that type of forum...Members would be judged more by their work instead of how much 'BS' they could sling at the walls...

Regards
Behr

Well said Al, as always.

Having frequented this forum for a while now, I have learned many things and my appreciation of bonsai as an artform rather than a branch of horticulture has developed along the way. I would not as yet qualify for this new forum in any other than #3, but it would be a goal for me to aspire too. I am just afraid that many would be deterred by the qualifying criteria.

Another thing that must be considered was aptly expressed by one of your countrymen:

"Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great."
Mark Twain

The one thing that has always stood out for me in this forum is the fact that I was given information and advise (from people who know a lot more than I do) freely and constructively, we must endeavour not to loose this or we will alienate a lot of enthusiatic beginners and maybe totally put them off.

Mike

I found one also at L33tb0nsa1.com, the rules there are simple and no one ever debates anything...

1.Eagerly you sign up only to find that the rules state that you must praise every single plant that is posted. Anyone can yank a weed out of a sidewalk crack, put it in a bonsai pot and call it art, after all the motto there is "Art is in the eye of the beholder."

2.To post a picture, one must first try without reading any howtos or FAQ's and they must honestly try to keep them postage stamp size.

3.To reply to a thread about any aspect of bonsai technique, one must first show that they have absolutely no knowledge at all of the subject at hand, posting about anything you actually have direct experience with will lead to bannination.

4.To reply to a thread about three point displays, one first must claim that a monkey or a four year old has done this before and fooled some bad critics.

5.To reply to any thread about artistic bonsai, one must always claim that it is not their goal as they do bonsai to relax.


Will

Al, I would love to read the posts on this 'new forum' but as you know I would not qualify to post. You are, in my mind, asking "Who here has the right to post answers to questions, and what makes you feel qualified"... this is a very good question!!!!

As for BonsaiTalk... it is wonderful that the 'Masters' in our membership gives us some of their time and of their advise. We are also blessed with the knowledge of those who may not be masters but are true teachers.....and I do not want to forget the next group, the (true) advanced students who are nearly teachers themselves.

All of the above give far more than they can imagine to those of us who so much need to learn. You all know who you are and from at least this individual...THANK YOU!!!

And as for those who may speak up out of turn, we are human and sometimes like to spread some of the limited knowledge we have.....

Jay

As an addendum to my above post:

Both Al and myself have posted fictional sites here. Both of these examples are at completely opposite ends of the spectrum, his at one extreme and mine at another.

Now lets take both these fictional sites and draw a line smack dab in the middle as I have shown below.


Al’s site

__________________________________


My site


It is my belief that any sites that fall above this line I have drawn are highly beneficial to learning and encourages such. The further above the line you get, the more advanced the learning will be.

On the other hand, the further below this line you get, the more detrimental it becomes toward learning, as you advance downward, learning slows dramatically and eventually will stop.

It is also my belief that most of the debates that take place are attempts by individuals to pull away from this line in one way or another. In this continual tug of war, the question we must all ask ourselves is, which way are we pulling and why?

I myself, pull toward the top because I want to learn.


Will Heath

Will, Yes but what kind of line?

Appreciating, or accomplishing?
Your comparing apples and oranges again. Who brought up anything about taking down the value of the material here? Only you. I'm talking about raising the bar, and your talking about lowering it. Seems you can find an opposite side to every post here

Jay, this is not meant to be a downer. It is not meant to segregate any one from the mix. This is just written as a friendly reminder to those that get way out on a tanget that when actually performing the tasks they talk about so easily, that the actual work is much harder to achieve then they think.

For instance I feel that any reply into a three point display discussion should be done after all those that wish to participate within the discussion have posted their image. Trust me, if all prepared to discuss have something on the block, the discussion will be much better then just giving an "opinion".

For example, look at the remarks in the contest thread by Will last year. For the most part they were short sweet, to the point and not much blasting going on. On the other hand look at some of the comments in the gallery, its a place to hit and run.

Blind opinion will be much more skewed versus mutual opinion which will be much more appreciated. Both parties have something to learn and the discussion will be much more condusive to a "learning environment".

Al