David:
"Or some other weird coupling of art and science - horticulture and miniaturization of nature in artful ways?"

Yes, it is exactly that. It is no wonder that many who are technically inclined gravitate to bonsai.

"Maybe if we all use the internet IMHO, even if we aren't so humble, the rest will understand that it's just another "learner's" opinion -- not carved on a tablet."

Fine, but when one argues that one's inaccurate "opinion" is actually fact (for us all to accept) there is a problem. I couldn't care a whit if every which opinion from Tuesday is expressed here or anywhere. What I do care about is that those who express flawed opinions, completely wrong facts, will argue to the end of the day that they're "right." The problem is compounded by the fact that many will believe them. That's sad and worth putting forth a bit of damage control.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

Andy, your response is really interesting and thought provoking. Now, I have too much respect for you to suggest that you haven't thought thru the implications of what you've said, but.......

I agree with your comment that Westerners, particularly Americans, find Bonsai too "other worldly" for it to ever become "mainstream". And, OK, let's concede that it is not a dominant theme in Japan. Nevertheless, it is certainly, or has been at times, a far more important theme in Japan than in the West. And I think there was a pretty widespread interest in it among many segments of Japanese society besides the Upper Classes. You don't have to be a practitioner or collector to have an interest in it. Or appreciation for it. And even those that lack an interest in it do not feel that way because of any off-putting reaction that it is too "other worldly".

Many students of the world's religions and spiritual traditions find consideraable differences between the sensibilities incorporated within Shinto and those of Western Religions, particularly in the area of relationship with Nature. If Japanese sensibilities are expressed in and conditioned by Shinto to the degree I think they are, or were in the past, I don't think it's much of a stretch to expect the average person in Japan to react to ancient trees in pots rather differently than the average Westerner, and for that reaction to have a rather different significance.

I think there are many in the West who consider Bonsai to be "silly", "stupid", "cruel to trees", in brief, a total waste of time. I think few in Japan feel that way. My own take is that Bonsai is a more comfortable fit with the rest of Japanese culture than it is with Western, particularly American and that it is more supportive of and is supported better by other cultural values there than is the case in the West.

Your Nickel, Fred

Fred,

"Many students of the world's religions and spiritual traditions find consideraable differences between the sensibilities incorporated within Shinto and those of Western Religions, particularly in the area of relationship with Nature. If Japanese sensibilities are expressed in and conditioned by Shinto to the degree I think they are, or were in the past, I don't think it's much of a stretch to expect the average person in Japan to react to ancient trees in pots rather differently than the average Westerner, and for that reaction to have a rather different significance."

I think you may be equating "different" with "differently" with regard to the relative responses of a Shintoist and a Christian to seeing a beautiful potted tree. Surely someone who holds Shinto beliefs will likely view and respond to a bonsai differently than would a Christian, but the respect, adoration, etc... would, I believe be roughly the same. After all, Christians do not hold some ideal that nature is not special, not beautiful, not a testament to God's unfathomable power and majesty. Just as does a Shintoist, Christians perceive majesty and spirituality (to a point) in nature just as Shintoist do. It's just that the kind of qualities that are perceived are different.

So, I'd say that a Shintoist and a Christian view nature differently, not not necessarily "different." (if that makes any sense).

BTW, we're venturing into the realm of speculation and faith - from which debate can render little. ;-)

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

Andy:
I can’t go into too much detail about Shintoism since I don’t know much about it other than that there is a deep respect for nature. However, 17 years of ordained ministry should qualify me to talk about Christianity. In terms of a Christian view of nature, there isn’t a unified view. The mainline Protestant denominations have in the last couple of decades developed a theology of ecology, emphasizing the importance of treating the earth with respect. Historically, Christianity does not have a very good track record in terms of viewing nature, seeing the earth as a commodity to be exploited rather than a gift to be treated and used with respect. This view of the earth as a commodity, I believe, is at the foundation of the more utilitarian view of nature in Western culture.

Rev. Craig Cowing

Craig,

Virtually all human beings see the earth, or its various parts, as commodities to be used or exploited. Religious beliefs have little to no impact on that. Both Christians and Shintoists use plants and animals to serve them in various ways: to build with, to eat, to cloth themsleves, etc...

However, it is both a Shinto and Christian view that nature is in some way representative of the great magesty of the divine (however that particular theme is defined).

Like I said, we're on somewhat contextually irrelevant and certainly caustic ground here. I'm quite scared to proceed any further.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

Well Said.

I am an artist/illustrator by profession.
Without the benefit of years and years of strict study and practice of the fundamentals, I would be floundering in the sea of lazy big mouthed *wanna-bes* the market if bloated with.

Look at Pablo Picasso's early work. His ability to paint like the masters of old came from years of intense study. This allowed him to branch out into the modern masterpieces he later created and moved millions with.

As far as Bonsai is concerned, I am neither a master or an expert by any means. I am however well studied enough to recognize what's what, and able to identify with the artist and his work. I believe this comes from 20 years of applying myself to the art. With that in mind, I am personally very interested in what Walter Pall is doing. Among many other bonsai artists, he seems to be pushing the art.. somewhere.

I have had the pleasure of spending time with many artists, painters, musicians and bonsaists. From this experience I can say that many on this board are truly artists and as opinionated as many of the painters, and musicians I have hung with. This kind of community is where art truly breathes and grows.

Andy R., your 'lil message speaks volumes and more people like you are needed in the "bonsai community" to keep it thriving. I appreciate what you've said here, possibly because I also subscribe to that attitude and partially because it IS something that needs to be said.

John,

I appreciate your nice comments, but especially your artist's discrimination. I agree with you that what Walter Pall is doing is interesting and likely important. He's also strong enough to suffer the slings and arrows of various degrees of criticism and answer it all confidently while going about his business.

Thanks for chiming in.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

Hey Andy

Yeah.. that Walter Pall sure gets stung occasionally. I've read a few of the heated debates here, and holy cow!
I am occasionally put on the chopping block in my profession, and it really does take "balls of steel" to sometimes "face the music". Especially when the abuse is coming from people you are unfamiliar with, and their backgrounds are a mystery.
I donno, maybe one day I'll have the testicular fortitude to step into the bonsai arena in some kind of professional attempt. As it stands now though, I feel I have a hell of a lot to learn yet through private study. Just stepping into this community and a few others has been a big hurdle for me, and I'm not a shy person, in fact I'm a fairly confident person.

All in all, this board reminds me of the cafeteria at "The Art Student's League". The place to get the worst coffee in NYC and the best conversation among artists about real issues, not stuff to please the critic and patron.

Actually it does have an impact. I'm thinking of the early chapters of Genesis in which Adam and Eve are given dominion over the earth. The translation of "dominion" means that they are give the right to take whatever they need or want. Now, it is true that everyone sees the earth in some way as a source of life, and indeed it is, but this adds another level to it.

Both Christians and Shintoists use plants and animals to serve them in various ways: to build with, to eat, to cloth themsleves, etc...

However, it is both a Shinto and Christian view that nature is in some way representative of the great magesty of the divine (however that particular theme is defined). [/QUOTE]

Quite right. The Old Testament/Hebrew Scriptures is full of references to that, particularly the Psalms. Wondeful stuff.

Like I said, we're on somewhat contextually irrelevant and certainly caustic ground here. I'm quite scared to proceed any further.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas [/QUOTE]

Doesn't sound like you, Andy. Since when have you shied away from controversy? I can't see why this is caustic. I'm not shoving my faith down anyone's throat, am I? This is very much at the foundation of a Western view of nature, which certainly informs our view of bonsai. It's entirely relevant, contextually and otherwise.

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

Hi Craig,

I will discuss, even debate religion or religious matters with you in a face-to-face conversation, one on one any time, anywhere. I will not, however, engage in such a conversation or debate in a public, online forum for bonsai. Religion (even politics) is a caustic topic even in a face-to-face conversation among even the best of friends. Here, it would become a destructive exercise and we all of us here know it.

Discussing elements of faith can be interesting and uplifting. Arguing elements of faith, in a forum for bonsai - hamstrung by the removal of many of the most important elements necessary for effective communication, is a non sequitur and an activity for fools.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas