Nick, what you say is absolutely bang on, I'm with you 100%.

Regards,

TB

the term cookie cutter should not be used, it is to vague.
this is a discussion over original designs "fresh" vs neo classical dead routines. neo classical repetitive routines= "cookie cutter".

With all due respect to Johathan, the idea that...

"this is a discussion over original designs "fresh"vs neo classical dead routines"

...is sad. I'm sure that you have every credential and authority to proclaim that a form of classical art is dead, and to proclaim what it really is that our discussion is "over." ;-) but forgive me if I can't hold with your proclamation.

Any idiot with some wire, some raffia and some technical skills can produce "fresh and exciting" strutures with trunks and branches on trees growing in pots. If this idiot can convince a sizable percentage of bonsai artists that what s/he's doing is remotely related to art, I will congratulate him/her.

Classical and neoclassical designs in bonsai are classical because they work. They evoke our mind's eye incarnation of certain elements of nature. The classical and neoclassical bonsai forms are successful, plain and simple. They are because they satisfy the important elements of human perception. But, of course, you already know this. I feel silly explaining it to you.

Youknowwhatelseisadeadroutinepunctionationisoldand overdoneIcantimaginewhatitisaboutpunctuationthatfa cilitatescommunicationdudeitisdead

Speleng is alsow ded and yusles. I'l just mak upp mi own fresch and xiting waa tu spel. Boi, this is waa beterr.

Fresh and exciting mean bupkis unless they also mean enhanced experience. This is why the top musical artists, the top actors, the top painters - all of the top artists in the world whose work stands the test of time - they all first spent a long time studying and copying the classics, classical craft, classical works, etc... before exploring their own "voice." And in virtually every case, that personal "voice" is just a slight variation on the classical form. Those who have endured without first bathing themselves fully in the classics endure because of super-human talent.

The classic forms ain't dead. They ain't even faltering. They're alive and well and the foundation of everything that will come after. They are founded in the truth of human perception and the basics of the human psyche. New and Fresh are just classics with new clothes (for the moment). New and Fresh are either our old friends with a twist or they're junk.

I'm sure that you will have trouble taking me at my word, but human history bears this out far better than I can explain it.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge

i'm sorry K.A. but i was just stating what this discussion was about not my views.

OK,

I throw another one at you.
This is a tirident maple of mine. It has won numerous awards.

Is it good?
Is it classical?
Is it neoclassical?
Is it naturalistic?
Is it a cookie cutter tree?

What do YOU think and what do you think that I think?
What does the general public think about it?
What do visiting Japanese masters think about it?
Does it deserve awards?
Does it look like a maple?

Fun
Walter

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Originally posted by Walter_Pall
I throw another one at you.
This is a tirident maple of mine. It has won numerous awards.

Is it good?

Yes, very good

Is it classical?

Er... no?

Is it neoclassical?

Yes.

Is it naturalistic?

Definitely no.

Is it a cookie cutter tree?

I think yes.

What do YOU think and what do you think that I think?

I like it a lot. I think that you no longer would though

What does the general public think about it?

I think they would like it too

What do visiting Japanese masters think about it?

I think they would absolutely love it.

Does it deserve awards?

Yes.

Does it look like a maple?

No. It is not even a maple styled as a pine IMO. It is a maple styled as a bonsai... not necessarily a bad thing ??

Regards,

TB

Treebeard, I LOVE YOUR RESPONSE (please excuse the caps; I saw the other day they could lead to my expulsion if I'm not careful!). You speak for me!

This tree, to me, has terrific individuality. I'd love to live with it, make it a part of my life and family, watch it change through the seasons, try to continue making small improvements to it year after year. listen to its needs and admire its beauty.

This question makes me think of our two Shelties. I guess, the truth is, that they are not works of art at all and are truly, "Cookie Cutter" doggies. Yet, it bothers me not a whit that there are hundreds. even thousands of dogs that resemble them closely. Perhaps if I was a dog breeder, I'd be getting tired of them and thinking about trying to be the first to create a totally new breed of dog. But, as a pet owner, I'm quite happy with them.

In my mind, Bonsai transcend the bounds of being nothing more than "works of art". Perhaps in a way, they are less than art for many of us. In some respects, more like "pets". Products of good craftsmanship rather than artistry. But, they are also, in important ways, something more. The joy that really awesome trees like the ones Walter is showing is undiminished whether they are totally unique or quite similar to hundreds or thousands of others.

I see that copies of Monet paintings continue to sell by the thousands, year after year. As well as newly bred Shelties. I think our common culture is enriched, not impoverished, by the availability of "Cookie Cutter" Prints, Dogs and Bonsai. As well as by Walter's work. I have no doubt that a couple of hundred years from now, somewhere in Central Europe a proud Bonsai enthusiast will be showing his friend a genuine Walter Pall original.

Or perhaps a "Cookie Cutter" copy.

Best Regards, Fred

Here is my take on this discussion.

Most of the opinions offered here are by persons who with all of there tallent and materials can not yet create any of the trees under discussion. I include myself in this group of inthusiasts.

My point is, if you can not create an exelent formal upright bonsai and understand why it is good, you are not in a position to discuss the drawbacks of the formal upright bonsai or the artest who created it.

The same goes for the opinions of clasic vs natural. I have respect for walters opinions and ideas because he expresses them with pictures of trees that he has worked on. I can see as well as hear his thoughts and ideas.

I expect that befor Walter develiped his ideas for the natural Bonsai he mastered the clasic forms of bonsai, this is at least my hope.
If you can't do it, you should not call it cookie cutter Bonsai.

Glenn

Glenn, I like to hear your views and generally feel there is alot to be learned from what you say. I think you're dead wrong on this one, however.

In the World of Bonsai, there are producers and consumers. I think that in the long run, the votes of consumers of Bonsai Art are just as important as the votes of Bonsai Producers and if the Producers of Bonsai are smart, they will place some value on the opinions of their consumers as well as on their own. It is not the art producer alone who has the capacity to appreciate beauty and articulate what (s)he finds beautiful in a work of art.

Fred

Glenn,

So the only persons who are alowed to critisize a bonsai are the people that can create them ? So, only people that can paint are allowed to critisize paintings ? So the only people are allowed to critisize a movie or say a musical are the people that make them ? What percentage of art critics produce art themselves ?Does that mean they know nothing about art ?

René