Cookie cutter bonsai. Just who coined this term, and why does it exist?I happen to like the classic forms and am just not ready to dismiss them as something that is simplistic or boring.

I have not even mastered the classic forms, why would I want to start trying to do something avant garde.

I think artistic expression is something that is reserved for semi-professional and professional bonsai artists. Wait a minute,..before the hackles start to rise, what I mean is, I think one has to plow through hundreds of bonsai to realize one bonsai that strays from the classical. I'm talking about the one that works.

Remember the thread about Walter's tree. Not everyone liked it. In fact there were some pretty serious words spoken at another forum about that tree. All Walter did was try something new.

Ahh... but he strayed from the normal, the classical. He tried to put the Walter touch on it. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. Walter has had enough expierance and stock to try something like this with a piece of stock that most of us can only dream of. How many here would think of moving that direction with out the aid of a roadmap, on a 500 year old piece of wood?

OMC has started his tutilage with the selection of some junipers to work on. Carl will try his hand at some naturalistic designs due in part to the nature of the stock. If only the tree had classic lines, I might venture a guess that he would stay with a classical tree.

So.. what is wrong with a collection full of cookie cutter bonsai. I would kill for a backyard full of the exact same shaped tree in a half a dozen specis.

Has the West in a scant 100 years taken bonsai to the next level? It took the Asian's a 1000 years to get bonsai on the map so to speak, and yet were ready to dismiss the classical shapes due to the fact that all look similar.

I think if you think trees all look similar, you need to step back and squint your eyes and have another look!

Bonsai-al

Al, not only is 'cookie cutter bonsai' not a bad thing, I think it is also not that easy. When you hear the term cookie cutter anything, you think of something that is a copy possible a simple thing to do. Bonsai, is not simple, as almost all of us know. Producing a tree that is in a cookie cutter style is also not easy and probably not going to give the exact same result. Cookie Cutter is an approximation.

I would very much like to see a thread next year ( a contest if we must) that starts with a picture of a clasical Juniper or other easy and inexspensive tree. The object of the thread would be to give everyone 3 months to produce two cookie cutter trees. My guess is that few if any of these cookie cutter copies will look like the original. I do not think that many will be able to take their two trees and get them to look like each other less the original.

Nature does not give us exactly the same tree each time we start. I know, I am straying a bit from the true cookie cutter ideals but does this have merit?

Jay

"I think artistic expression is something that is reserved for semi-professional and professional bonsai artists."

The only way to become an artist in any medium is to master the techniques required to execute the intended design. Copying the classic forms is analogous to playing scales in music. Until you can play the notes at will, how can you accurately compose the music playing in your head? Mastering the classic forms is the foundation for clear individual expression.

"All Walter did was try something new."

I'm also sure that Walter can play the bonsai scales in his sleep. There is also a lot of thought behind what he's attempting.

"OMC has started his tutilage with the selection of some junipers to work on. Carl will try his hand at some naturalistic designs due in part to the nature of the stock. If only the tree had classic lines, I might venture a guess that he would stay with a classical tree."

One piece of instruction I've received that I strongly believe (more and more all the time) is that when evaluating any piece of raw material, always look for the classic tree as a starting point for determining a design. I am not even close to mastering these forms, so attempting the classic is always the first option if the material allows. One common trap for beginners is to try to force material into an unsuitable design to add diversity to their collection. "I already have a cascade, so I'll make this into a slant". Why make a crappy slant when you can have a great cascade?

"So.. what is wrong with a collection full of cookie cutter bonsai. I would kill for a backyard full of the exact same shaped tree in a half a dozen species."

Nothing wrong, but.... Recently, I had the chance to see a local bonsai enthusiast's collection. All of his trees are large specimen quality ($$$), styled at a high level of technique and horticulturally sound. But every tree (around thirty) are formal and informal uprights. He styled all of these trees himself from raw stock , but all were very similar. I would be proud to have any of these trees, but if he'd had a variety of classic forms, all at the same level of quality, I would have really been blown away.

Best Regards,

David

Ahh, how I yearn for that day when my first "cookie cutter" bonsai is completed! How I love the classic forms and all that they represent to me!

I think Walter's definition of "Cookie Cutter Bonsai" was something about "classic forms executed at a lower level of expertise". Yes, YES, that is exactly what I aspire to!

I think I may change my ID here on the forum to "Cookie Cutter Fred". Only problem is, I think that may be unfair to others who have reached that greatly exalted level of expertise.

As for Walter, who can comprehend him? He is like a JS Bach or Thomas Edison. I can only wonder at his work. Maybe, if reincarnation is the actually the way things work, in 8 or 10 lifetimes of practicing constant improvement, I might begin to understand how he thinks and what he does. Not enough time in this one, even if I started over again at, say, age 8 or 10.

Best regards, Fred

I personally think that walter is taking the "easy" way out (please dont take offense walter). The way walter does naturalistic style is basically me taking all of my tropical potensai (they usually have a long umbrella type shape head) and putting them in pots. Do I consider that a bonsai? No I consider that a potensai in a bonsai pot, just like a lot of walters "finished" trees. Although the difference would be that his material is much better than mine.

Charles, I'm astonished that you can think that. Have you missed all the threads that show years of work going into the creation of such trees?? Post up some potensai and I will virt them into bonsai pots for you... let's see if it is as easy as all that

Re Al's original post:

I agree with almost all you say. No shame in cookie cutter classic bonsai. My hackles do not rise at the thought that artistic expression is the preserve of semi-pro and pro.

Regards,

TB

I would be glad to post a picture of a green island ficus potensai. Just allow me to take a photo. I will have it on in a few minutes.

Also, I must forgive walter if I offended him on this. It is just my personal preference.

Walter came to our club recently and made about 10 cuts on a potensai and said it is now in its natural form. I disagreed, but that is just the way he likes his trees.

Potensai before (please note I am still growing the left branch, but when it is complete it would look "naturalistic").

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Now after. And you must remember I mentioned his material is much better, so I can't really compete, but you get the idea. I do have an advantage with tropicals growing quickly. Not to mention I live in florida and have twice the growing season than most people.

This is not my best virtual but here you go-

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Final virtual. Please not this is a great naturalistic style tree, but lacks foliage pads-

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