Brian,

I must confess that the word "conspiracy" was used to draw attention to the thread.

I must disagree with you on this one though. I think that falsely claiming that bonsai is not an art or promoting that anything is okay as long as you are happy, can indeed be detrimental. Maybe not to you and I as you suggested but perhaps to a fresh mind.

The greatest thing though is to have a forum where such things can be intelligently discussed so there is more information for people to form an opinon on.

Will

Will,

I take your point that it could be detrimental to the development of an individual....at least for a time....but not to bonsai as a whole. You don't believe that Walter or Boon would alter anything they hold dear because of an on line discussion do you? Of course not. The worst that could happen is to slow down some beginners....maybe not ideal, but not so terrible.

Brian

A number of years ago, actually probably quite a few, there was a gentleman that had a program on TV that actually was about bonsai. Some of you may remember this program. He would take tropical plants like Australian Brush Cherry, wrap their roots in wet Peat Moss and jam them into rocks. To him this was bonsai, to a lot of people that watched the show as their first introduction to bonsai, this was bonsai.

Though I am loath to use the word conspiracy I tend to grasp onto the word Paucity in bonsai education. The process of teaching less than required or practicing less than you are able. When this type of thing trickles down to those just starting out we are in essence dumbing down the quality of bonsai.

Earlier I used the words Soul, Charisma, Spirit, and Kami to define the essence of bonsai as that undefinable quality that makes one of two similar trees remarkable while the other is not. I believe it is this quality that us in the West cannot or will not attempt to get in touch with that has made the elusive American Bonsai a thing of myth. A stick in a pot will never have the appeal that touches the heart of the viewer into a revery with it.

However, according to the definition of bonsai almost anything qualifys in our culture just because it is a tree in a pot. Sometimes we allow ourselves to become impaled on the definition of words. Take automobile for instance. Litteraly a man made object that is capable of powered movement, so by this definition a skate board equiped with a weed wacker motor is an automobile. To take this seriously is obsurd within the context of our understanding of what an automobile is.

So the point is what is a bonsai and what is not a bonsai and according to whose definition? This is the real value of a thread like this. It makes us look at ourselves and try to come to grips with our own perception of the art of bonsai. Maybe somewhere in there we will discover that the real beauty of bonsai transcends the pot, the trunk and the branches. For the Japanese Bonsai has always been a way to demonstrate the relationship between earth, man, and heaven.

It has been said of some people of spiritual thinking that they are so heavenly minded that they are no earthly good. It could also be said that some people are so earthly minded that they are not spiritually aware. So where do we go from here? I don't really know, when I find out I will let you know. But I do know there is a direction in bonsai that goes beyond the rules and the techniques. Putting sticks in pots will not get you there or anyone else for that matter.

Granted, good point.

I'm just happy that Walter or Boon weren't "slowed down" when they were beginners.


Will

Vance,

That was most likely the most beautiful and inspiring post I have ever read on bonsai, I was sincerely moved and touched by it, thank you.

Will

because i say so!!!!!!!!

Some of it is good art.some of it is bad art....some of it is inspired,some of it is more craftsman like......some of it is sophisticated,some is primitive

there are great artists,good artists,bad artists,professional artists,hobbiest artists......some are serious,some dabble,and many are somewhere in between.

some people actually make money by creating,some by teaching,some by selling the "finished product",some by selling the materials and tools required to make this art we call bonsai............ofcourse some also make money selling crap(motel art and roadside and mallsai bonsai).

dang it!i hope this clears this nonsense up for everyone.

now,where were we?.oh yeah...the destruction of bonsai as we know it,or wish it would be......i think any interest at all in little trees in pots is a beginning and a good thing...those that are so inclined will continue on,those with any drive will learn from those who know more and those with the talent,determination,dedication and patience will become well versed in the craft....those with "vision" will rise to the top(as will some shameless self promoters)

now then,typing,spelling and eloquence are arts unto themselves....or maybe they're just crafts....or maybe two of them are crafts and one is an art....or.........and so it goes

andy

Before I really get into my post, I want to say that I love these threads. I don’t know if anyone here has ever watched NHK (Nihon Housou Kyoukai), but these threads kind of remind me of some of some of their historical "dramas" about Musashi, Nobunaga (the recent one was really good), Tokugawa, and many other historical figures in Japan. My point is, one either loves them or hates them. There is no middle ground and I believe that whether or not one can enjoy that type of show really provides insight into the type of person an individual is. There is no disrespect intended: I like people who like watching those shows, and I like people who don’t like those shows. I just happen to talk about different things with those who don’t. I will say this, though: these threads have helped me create a more artistic view of bonsai than anything else I have seen, read, or heard.

Let me make one thing clear: there are no conclusive answers and there is no one here, gifted or otherwise, able to conjure answers to questions that have been raised since time immemorial. I do not attempt to answer those questions. I merely intend to explain my point of view.

To me, art is something very simple. Art is something that moves you. Art is, at times, repulsive; I have seen paintings and photographs of the holocaust, the Nanking massacre, and the atomic strikes on Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Those acts were pure barbarism and the art reflects that. I doubt anyone would argue that images that powerful are not art. Art also creates feelings of nostalgia. When I see paintings of Big Sur in California or the coastal mountain ranges, I'm filled with longing for my true home. Art also creates sadness. Sadness is what I feel when I look at Salvador Dali’s painting, "The Persistence of Memory".

Perhaps everyone agrees that the reason art is so difficult to define is because it is not tangible. The meaning of art is not sensory, but rather art must be emotive. Therefore, bonsai as an art form must also be emotive. My point is, practicing bonsai lacking artistic tendencies is merely a horticultural exercise, a type of science. It has nothing to do with creating art, but rather keeping a plant alive.

However, striving to create an emotion through the one's chosen medium should be the goal of all bonsai-artists. To simply call one's self a "bonsai-ist" or one who "does bonsai" cheapens the goal that is being strived for. After all, anyone who creates bonsai attempts to create an idealized viewpoint of nature. After all, idealization is a characteristic of many artistic endeavors.

The best way for a beginner to become an exceptional bonsai-artist is to make mistakes, and graciously accept reproach when shown the errors of one’s ways. As a friend often says, “When you act like a big dog, don’t expect any sympathy.” I am one of those people that, perhaps and for good reason, Will and others criticize: I do not have any finished trees, I do not have a tree close to being ready for show, I am still learning the basics of design, and yes, if asked, I will attempt to justify the reasons for my current circumstances. However, I do hold myself up to a higher standing than nearly everyone else, and I do expect myself to become an exceptional bonsai-artist in the future, or at least, die trying. Anything else would be dishonest and a waste of a good life.

best regards,

Jeff

Jeff,

This was a very intelligent, well spoken post that completely explained your viewpoint to a tee. I am quite impressed with your thoughts and I learned from them.


These words make a thread worthwhile and are indeed the best compliment one could receive.

Great post,

Will

It's those photos that keep me coming back to this site!

I think art is personal. The difficulty in defining it lies in the varying impact is has on the observers. Obviously the farther one moves away from mainstream opinions in their art, the less likely it is that people will connect with it. I don't think something can necessarily be discredited as art just by virtue of it being widely unpopular.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder as they say. As an example, there is a bonsai that is used as an avatar on this site (I won't use any names but it recently came back from Epcot with a nest in it). I am very impressed with the work that has gone into creating it. The colors are very pleasing to my eye. I have complemented it publicly in all sincerity. It does not represent to me however, what I envision bonsai to be. I truly believe it is art and a bonsai so don't shoot me. I know that I am probably in the minority in my opinion on this particular piece of art and that is OK because...

...I think art is personal.

These are my feelings on the subject and not intended to be substituted for your own.

Regards,
Mark