Not against the art. Just the usless argument.

Will,

Since I basically agree it's hard to provide logical refutation.

Those that would not agree there is some standard are just going to say "phooey who are you to judge my art?"

Aren't you asking an unarmed man to draw his sword?

(hmm maybe an armless man to draw his sword in some cases...)

They'll tout their self expression standard is just as legitimate as contrast, texture, color harmony, balance, etc. etc.

Unless we can get Matt to ban them then we put up with them, kinda like this athlete's foot.... until they burn out or their understanding matures

I should have put more emphasis on "constantly looking for advice" and write instead "perpetually looking for advice". It is natural to look for guidance at the beginning, but it shouldn't take forever for someone with talent to start having his own ideas.


I know this is a burning question, but unfortunately you are not going to find a perfect definition anywhere. That's because there is none. By nature, art is not something that one can define in such terms that following a few steps will lead to its creation. If that was the case, we could all become great artistst taking a crash course.

Aside from the fact that it is not the subject of this thread, just go to the library (as I have done) and look at the hundreds of books with similar subjects : defining art, any art that is. Philosophers throughout the centuries tried to find definitions that apply to all works of art, and none of those definitions is good enough to have practical value, or to help us create art.

The conclusion to this question is that there is no prescribed formula for art. It can only be decided in hindsight, when you look at a particular piece of art and then look at what it does to you.

I remember you asking this question on several occasions. I just want you to understand that there is no answer that will satisfy us. Believe me, it's not my fault. And it's not because I don't know enough about bonsai to answer it. It's because you can't define bonsai art, or any art, in practical terms.
It is beyond rational definition.

(you may conclude from this that if you can't define, it doesn't exist. but if you do so, you will be in denial because it does exist)

I can totally agree with this.

Thoughts of undermining the art of bonsai make for interesting reading. I have enjoyed it very much. I have especially enjoyed the comments of those I respect and their contributions towards helping those on the fence to make a judgement call.

Bottom line.. You only get out of bonsai what you put into it...

Make artistic bonsai...
post them here....
Allow those you respect tell you if you are on the right path...

If you are thats all that matters, let those that don't see find their own way..

Al

And yet another attempt marginalize discussion of art and artistry.

To some, what you see as "useless argument" is interesting --- even vital --- discussion.

If you see it as useless argument, then don't scream at the box, change the channel.
-Carl

Will,

I don't debate any of your points....it's your central premise that I dispute. I don't believe any discussion here has the slightest ability to be detrimental to bonsai, nor see any evidence of a conspiracy to undermine bonsai. You and I are both free to accept or reject opinions posted here, and pursue our bonsai as we see fit.

Brian

Hope you feel more relaxed in the morning. Maybe then you will feel like I have the right to an opinion. Even post it here.
Sometimes I wonder why I bother to post. The agrivation level is always high.
You are like a soap opera.
Always predicitable. Never changing. But you are right I should change the channel. It is not worth the grief

Of course everyone is entitled to an opinion. However, I can't see any point in making remarks in a thread one finds disinteresting. It's counterproductive as it will only bring that thread to the surface again and again. That's pretty self defeating. There are other discussions going on bonsaiTALK, (nearly eleven thousand the last time I checked).

Even Baskin Robbins has 31 flavors, so there is no reason to keep ordering vanilla and complaining it is bland, unless one just likes the attention.

Regards,

Matt

As usual you are right.

Im out of here.