Vance,

Good points I never thought of, you deserve more reps than I can give you for your vast scope of knowledge, thanks.


Will

I obviously agree with Will's premise that bonsai is an arform and that bonsai that lacks artistry is not a good bonsai. People born with artistic talent will create good bonsai and people who lack talent will create mediocre or poor bonsai.

It is as simple as that.
No amount of expanation, validation or rationalization will change that.

If you find yourself constantly thinking, searching, imagining, fantasizing about bonsai, chances are that you have something in you that you can translate in art. On the other hand, if you constantly looking for other's advice and guidance, and find it necessary to explain and rationalize the lack of results, you probably don't have what it takes to create outstanding bonsai. In that case you can take the roolbook and other bonsai books and try to imitate what others have done. The good news is that the result can still be acceptable, and so bonsai generously offers a place for everyone.

The difference between myself and Will is that I don't see a conspiracy of bad bonsai threatening good bonsai.

Imagine that Toyota decides one day that it will stop making quality cars and start making low quality ones, calling them a fancy name. Would that be a conspiracy against quality? No, it would just be bad business and bancruptcy.

There is no conspiracy in pursuing bonsai as a hobby. It's just that when you do that, nobody really cares about your work and everybody will pass you by. Just don't expect anyone to take you as an authority. Otherwise you may end up as the laughing stock.

Attilla,

I agree about the conspiracy, but a catchy title always brings in more viewers.


I liked your summary, short, sweet, and straight to the point, I wish I would have said it.


Will

Wrong forum Will... you know that. It takes far less effort to heel in and defend opinion because it can't be challenged easily... Funny how the the "Art" forum gets far less traffic. Not as fun as all this I suppose...

Crap. I promised my self I'd just lurk.

Additionally, Van Gogh studied art seriously as well - mastered the skills of drawing and painting and worked extensively in the styles in vogue (earlier work is in the style of the Dutch Masters- first recognized masterpiece- "The Potato Eaters"). Absinthe and mental health theories aside, his work was derivative and based on solid theory- granted it was not the favored norms of the time. He chose to emphasize, sometimes to an extreme, certain artistic fundamentals over others. Much as Kimura does.

The problem we have is the frickin "happy to be me" culture that's been created for us... be dissatisfied about everything but be too distracted or complacent to do anything about it. Wrap it all up in a self esteem bandaid... You can be an artist- it doesn't take skill or craft or even a creative gift. Simply hang out your shingle- and b@#$ if the trained artists don't accept you. While arguing with them make sure you scam as many of their original ideas as you can.

I'm being cynical, of course, but as soon as anyone other than Pall debates a point the tone turns "elitist".

Any exchange based on the premise that all ideas are equally valid is doomed to this never ending cycle... bonsai ain't science- it's not easily disproven by facts over-riding facts. In real scientific forum, if your data doesn't back up your theory you don't get to say well "my opinion is" at some relatively early point you're belittled and shunned. Career over. No room for "the data takes so long to collect" or "I'm not in it for the grants and actually contributing to mankind's knowledge base- I just love the pursuit of science".

Time and time again it's been said here (usually much more diplomatically) - "put up or shut up". Maybe there IS a pony under your pile of sh@#$ but forgive me if I tell you the pile ain't moving, it stinks and everyone's chances of finding one are better off in the open pasture where there's some strange horse-like movements going on. Don't demand an audience from the pasture-pony-hunting crew- keep groping and if you find one, by all means show us how much better it is than ours.


Attilla indirectly states a critical point- there is such a thing as bad bonsai.

Exclusive of Japanese, Chinese, Taiwanese, Amurrican, European...

The diplomatic teacher i.e., "better" will find a way to coerce you to make better. Is he better than the one that says- this sux- there's the compost pile... Dunno, but in an open forum the only choice you have is to hide.

The first statement seems to imply that the crapsai exponent is a detriment to artistry and could lead people down the wrong path; the second statement appears to say that bonsai has been around for too long to allow the crapsai exponent to be a detriment or to sway people.

Make sense

Regards,

Chris.

Now here is a thought. Just a thought and not pointed at anyone in particular.
Why do those that create the least art, espouse to only be a student, a beginner if you will, write the most concerning "bonsai is art".
On many occasions I have asked the dreaded question 'If bonsai is art then define bonsai art"
I get a lot of "I know it when I see it" responses. Even more comparisons between bonsai and sculpture and painting.
It is the same when I ask "How does one create art in bonsai"
How come one hardly ever sees a major artist in one of these discussions ?.
Is there a difference between creating art and just talking about creating art ?.
How does a student , or one that says he is, define what bonsai art is. Can he define art if he hasn't yet master it. Or at least excelled in it.
Does he have the qualifications to define ?
Do we follow the students path or the artist path. ?
Both are different after all
Decent question I hope

Not my choice Jim, I originally posted this in another forum but it was moved here. Excellent words of wisdom Jim, so easy to understand but so hard to admit.

Will

Maybe Barry was right about the broken record after all. He just called it before it happened. Sorry, Barry!

-Carl

To better understand it and to defend the very reasons one loves bonsai? Another question would be, why do those who do not create art in quality bonsai attack it so much? Given the choice of the two, I'd much rather defend it than attack it.

I have never claimed to be anything else than a beginner, a fact I mentioned a few times once again in this very article. The real question is why do the supposedly more experienced defend the mediocrity?


I think Vance Wood just posted here not long ago, Jim Stone posted above, and Walter has often been involved in these art discussions.


Of course and there also is a correlation, the talking leads to learning and the learning to creating. Or the talking can be detrimental to striving for perfection and that is what this thread is about.

Could you point out where I defined bonsai art?

The small jibs will not change the basic truths Ron, thanks,


Will

Cripes Ron, that's a lot of questions! Unfortunately I don't have the answers... I suspect some of them are unanswerable... but I do spend many an hour thinking about things like this.

Regards,

Chris.