bonsaiTALK Community - The Conspiracy To Undermine The Art Of Bonsai

#131

by Ian_Homer on 16-Jun-2005

John,

LOL, Or helicopters for that matter.

I have had several PM's offering help, but it's not me who needs it.

It's up to Matt to set the ground rules and decide who if anyone, other than himself, can administer the Tree Of The Day.

I am sure he will read yours and Wills offers on here, but perhaps PM him anyway. Meantime, thanks for all the offers directly to me.

I'm happy with the ATM admin and keeping on top of my day to day business commitments.

Best wishes,
Ian

P.S. Nice to see we have a NQRY tree on TOD at the moment.
I must put some input into it !

Last edited by Ian_Homer : 16-Jun-2005 at 09:13 AM.

#132

by Will_Heath on 18-Jul-2005

Ian,

It would seem that NQRY has went the way of the tree of the day, maybe there is still hope?

Will

#133

by Will_Heath on 9-Aug-2005

Then again.....?

#134

by Will_Heath on 23-Sep-2005

Maybe not.

#135

by Martinez on 23-Sep-2005

Will -

I read through some of the replies and I grew tiresome of the bickering. You asked for logical discussion on the merits. I will do my best.

Quote:

A Little History First

Every since the very first person started trimming a potted plant in order to make it look like an idealized miniature tree, bonsai has been on a path to higher art. The Chinese refined the art form into miniature landscapes that were specially designed and arranged to be pleasing to the eye. The Japanese concentrated on single trees or single groups of trees in a pot and strove for perfection in every detail of the bonsai.

In Japan where this art was refined and perfected, every single detail was attended to from the actual bonsai to the pot, to the way they were displayed alone or with viewing stones or accents. What we so blatantly refer to as “rules” are actually guidelines perfected over many years of trial and error, more years than any of us will ever have available to make the same mistakes, more years of raw experience than the total experience of all the members here combined. Guidelines that if not followed make it difficult to create a bonsai or display that is pleasing to the eye.

Bonsai has always been an art form. Whenever we style a bonsai, whenever we wire, trim, shape, prune, chop, or pinch or bonsai it is with the same goal in mind that all those before us had. The simple undeniable goal of bettering our bonsai, bringing it a little closer to perfection, making it more artistic is why we bother at all.

The word Bonsai means; in both Chinese and Japanese, tree in pot. Lets not get away from this concept. Ever.

How old is the practice of Bonsai in America? Not very.

Some People call John Naka the "Father of American Bonsai". After all, the first "formal" viewings of Bonsai began around 1950. They were held in L.A., with John Naka at the helm. Read the "about" pages of most major American Bonsai associations, and you will see Mr. Naka mentioned, a lot. He is a main player on the National Aboretum Bonsai page.

John Naka was heavily steeped in strict, traditional, "rule" laden, Japanese Bonsai. He was a master, a true Bonsai Horticulturist. If you look at the index of Bonsai Techniques I and you look under "A"; What do you see?

Do you see a mention of Art? No. You see methodologies to practice Horticulture on a dwarf tree. You see tables, graphs, angles, and some basic arithmetic. You will find different Japanese styles to help guide you, if thats your flavor. However, we are reminded by Mr. Naka on pg. 123, "No two trees are alike." (Funny that statement landed on pg. 1 - 2 - 3 ... all that's missing is a triangle)

Quote:

Square Peg, Round Hole

Now there are some who have not reached the level yet of creating bonsai that are artistically sound, I myself fall into this category. However, a few people, instead of simply admitting that they fall short of this and that they are actively working to obtain it, they make excuses and try to justify the fact that they have not yet created bonsai.

These few people insist that their attempts should not be judged since they are happy with them. They insist that the mere act of growing a tree is all that matters and that bonsai is not art, but in fact just a hobby. They even go as far as to try and redefine the meaning of bonsai to suit their personal efforts. Some have even invented new names, hoping somehow to justify their efforts and gain acceptance for their sub-standard bonsai under another name than bonsai.

I am in total agreement that a person should be able to enjoy anything they wish to. If sticks in a bonsai pot is what makes them happy and they wish to advance no further, that’s perfectly all right. However, when they post these on a bonsai forum and attempt to justify the condition of such, they open themselves up for critique. Getting upset at people who actively pursuer the art of bonsai because they point out the flaws in their bonsai is non-productive at the very least.

Trying to rename bonsai and create new standards to justify their own sub-standard bonsai is simply avoiding the truth. They are only trying to cram a square peg into a round hole. Bonsai was defined as an art form long before any of us were born, long before our parents and grandparents were born, I hardy think it will be redefined by a couple people who haven’t one single, actual bonsai to show.

When changes are made to this art form, people who have proved themselves with artistic bonsai make them. Walter Pall is often mention in regards to his “Naturalistic” styling but it is not often mentioned how many bonsai he created before breaking into his own and redefining our vision of bonsai. In this art form, like all others, you must first learn how to do it before you can figure out how to change it.

By definition any tree that happens to be in a pot is literally "bonsai", but lets not split hairs.

A few questions;

What is the basis of reference for critiquing Bonsai? Where does this knowledge come from? How is this information processed? Why do some consider manipulating a tree to fall into a category, art? What makes a Bonsai horticulturist an artisan and a citrus or soy bean grower just a farmer?

If you take something seriously, does that automatically make it art? Most people take breathing very seriously, are we all master artisans of breathing? If you take your job seriously, does that make you an occupational artisan?

Are dog shows a lesson in art, or Veterinary science and grooming?

My point is; Bonsai is subjective by dogma. Yes, one can train his trees into classical bonsai shapes hitting every "rule" spot on. BUT that doesn't make one an artist, in my opinion. At best; a skilled or master horticulturist. At worst; a boring copy cat.

We are all different. The "way" one practices Bonsai is always going to be different than that of the next guy or teacher. How boring would it be to see the same trees using the same techniques all the time. Rules and policy are for the military and government, not Bonsai.

How was Bonsai defined as an Art form in America? One has to constantly remember that we aren't Japanese. We should embrace this fact and let our imaginations define our "style".

Quote:

Reinventing The Wheel

Automotive tires, perfect in function, impossible to reinvent. You can go on a tire forum and scream that you use square wheels and are perfectly happy, but don’t get upset when you are pounded with many reasons why your statement makes no sense.

Innovations are often made to tires, better material, longer lasting, smooth riding, etc. But the same basic principles still remain; trying to reinvent the wheel is such a silly idea that the term itself is used whenever someone tries the equivalent on any other idea.

As I mentioned above, bonsai has been invented already, redefined to a fault, there will always be room for some innovations, but to try and reinvent bonsai to suit your personal ability is a waste of both your time and those who you badger with your attempts to justify it.

Debatable. Depends on the Dogma one subscribes to. If you have no standard dogma for reference, say the Japanese styles, you are free to invent your own. Do you think the ancient Babylonians subscribed to a manual when they built the hanging gardens? How about the Incan's and the terraced farming practices of Machu Picchu? Who was the person that decided, one day, to stick a tree in a pot and call it bonsai?

The saying; "I think, therefore I am ~ Descartes", applies here.

Quote:

Learn To Walk Before You Learn To Run

Seems everyone wants to take a shortcut. We often hear people dismissing the traditional “rules” saying that bonsai can exist without them. Then we are giving links to world-class bonsai that violates one rule or another. Trust me when I tell you that the artists that create these world-class bonsai never got that knowledgeable and talented by ignoring advice from ages past.

No matter what you try and accomplish in life, you must first learn the basics. Then you must master them before attempting to stray from them. Some of the greatest artist in the world served apprenticeships where they were forced to perform menial, basic tasks time after time until they perfected them. This is what forms the foundation to build on, without a foundation nothing can stand for long.

No doubt... The masters of today are master horticulturists. As long as everyone subscribes to the "rules", we are destined to have few masters. A tree will always have something "wrong" with it, in the classical sense. A masterful horticulturist will attempt to correct a trees physical short comings with invasive, methodical, and cunning horticulture skills. The true master will do this to make his trees look better, not to subscribe to a standard dogma. That is an example of applied knowledge after years of study, mistakes, errors and the intangible talent for horticulture AKA Green Thumb.

Argue stands and pots all day... The tree will speak for itself if it is something worth looking at. And after 10 years of more of training, watering, and feeding, it better or one should find something else to do.

Quote:

The Usual Arguments And Answers

As long as I enjoy what I’m doing. Quality don't matter.

True, no one has ever debated this, however if you show your attempts and/or start giving advice on how to style bonsai then you open yourself up for critique. The example of painter has often been used to defend this point. Painters, they say, are not all great artists, some just paint for pleasure and put their paintings in a closet. This is fine, but if they decide to start posting their work on artist forums and give advice on how to paint, I imagine that they would quickly be brought to task.

You're right... But who's to say the people giving the advice, through a hopelessly anonymous medium like the Internet, a worth the morning commode visit? There are lots of people that give advice that have no business doing so... But that doesn't stop them. That is why the Internet should be a place to discuss Bonsai.... Not live and die by how your trees are perceived on an Internet forum.

Quote:

I just enjoy watching my bonsai - it’s my hobby.

Fine again. Enjoy yourself but please don’t invalidate those who strive for more than container plants.

hob·by
n., pl. -bies. An activity or interest pursued outside one's regular occupation and engaged in primarily for pleasure.

What is one striving for on the Internet? To "win" anything, one would still need to show ones trees in the "skin and flesh" of a "real" show. Unless you're going "pro" or making money off of it... Its a hobby.

Quote:

I am not interested in creating art.

Again, perfectly fine. But be prepared to answer then why would you trim, wire, shape, and prune your plants. Also please be prepared to have them judged artistically when you show them, bonsai is a art,...

To answer that question quite suffice, all one would have to say is; I like bending my plants into shapes that are pleasing to me. I like keeping my plants healthy. My tree isn't art until I say it is... That isn't your decision.

Quote:

Who is anyone to say what art is or isn’t?

Your peers decide, the public decides. Artists know what it is. There are some “artists” that are cr@pping in mason jars and calling it art, that view is limited to them, not many others. There is no real difference between this and cr@pping in a pot. You can cr@p in a pot and call it bonsai till you are blue in the face, you can defend it to the death, you can rename it and call it feces bonsai, but in the end it’s still just cr@p in a pot. Enjoy it all you want, display it proudly in your backyard, but the minute you post it for public viewing it will be called cr@p in a pot.

In addition to everything I have stated thus far, which is solely my opinion, lets take your Cr@pping analogy a bit further. If one happens to think Japanese 1-2-3 styles are boring and a mis-representation of trees in nature, for example. That view may or may not be held with others, agreed? You can defend Japanese 1-2-3 styles till your blue in the face, but in the end they are boring and a mis-representation of of trees in nature. Enjoy your Japanese 1-2-3 styles. The second you post it for public consumption, on a hopelessly anonymous medium like the Internet, anyone can say its boring and a mis-representation of a tree in nature.

Last edited by Martinez : 23-Sep-2005 at 08:01 AM.

#136

by Joanie on 23-Sep-2005

I am closing this thread, the arguments are not moving us forward. Sorry, guys!
Joanie

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