Vance, I don't think you are making any friends standing on "that" side of the fence. Better to pull the tent stakes and salvage what you can before you shove the whole foot in.

A loyal listener, Al

Three articles in national magazines........(not about bonsai but writing is writing)....several self published on web......no plagarism..........
WHACK!

I just made an observation---I still think it is valid, this is a lynch mob mentality. Let me ask the question; If this had simply been a discussion about plagiarism do you think it would have gone to 17 pages on its own merits? In fact this is not about plagiarism at all---It's about Will Heath. Will made a mistake, or as some would have it, committed murder, and because there is so much hatred for the man it has brought all of this to the surface where any one and everyone with a bone to pick with Will can actually pick Will's bones with impunity.

Is this a defense of Will? If you want it to be, if it makes you feel better to think it is. But maybe there is more being said here than that, and I think you ought to think about the damage you are doing to yourselves giving in to hatred the way some of you have. These things are not without consequences of their own.

And Al: I appreciate your concern but I am not trying to make friends, especially if in order to do so I have to engage in the destruction of someone else whether they deserve it, in some people's minds, or not.

It could also be called a last ditch effort to make excuses by those that would rather stick their heads in the sand.

One way or the other the shoe must fit one foot or the other.

I ware a 12 1/2 and can always tell when that foot is stuck firmly up somewhere. Pity not all can say the same.

Will is where he is because he worked very hard to be here. He failed many times but kept working as hard as possible. Why deny him the praise he not only deserved but worked so hard do deserve. Why steal that honor from him.

I thought that the following extract courtesy of a Google search might be appropriate here – the actual words of the poem say it all for me.

I agree with Vance as to the assassination of Will Heath by some members here

Oh! and Jonie – You can lock this thread whenever you like as far as I’m concerned, I think that plagiarism has been done to death. whak, whak, whak.

Terre Haute, Indiana. The Desiderata myth began after Reverend Frederick Kates reproduced the Desiderata poem in a collection of inspirational works for his congregation in 1959 on church notepaper, headed: 'The Old St Paul's Church, Baltimore, AD 1692' (the year the church was founded). Copies of the Desiderata page were circulated among friends, and the myth grew, accelerated particularly when a copy of the erroneously attributed Desiderata was found at the bedside of deceased Democratic politician Aidlai Stevenson in 1965. [/color]


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Whatever the history of Desiderata, the Ehrmann's prose is inspirational, and offers a simple positive credo for life.

desiderata - by max ehrmann

Go placidly amid the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence.

As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even to the dull and the ignorant, they too have their story. Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit.

If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain and bitter; for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself. Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans. Keep interested in your own career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.

Exercise caution in your business affairs, for the world is full of trickery. But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals, and everywhere life is full of heroism. Be yourself. Especially, do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love, for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment it is perennial as the grass.

Take kindly to the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth. Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.

Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life, keep peace in your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world.

Be cheerful. Strive to be happy.

Max Ehrmann c.1920

Nice poem. Idealistic, zen-like. And it has absolutely nothing to do with the subject.

Let's stop talking about Will. Don't mention his name, or allude to him. Let's discuss plagarism, as Matt asked us to.

Does anyone have anything to add to the discussion, regarding plagarism and its application to bonsai publications (including internet forums)?

Joanie

Joanie, this thread isn't really here to discuss plagiarism. You know it and so do many of us. It's here as a monument to Will's various improprieties, the last of which happened to be plagiarism. Why else would it have gone on so long, having little or nothing to do with bonsai? And why else would Matt have reopened it once you committed the faux pax of closing it? Just so we're clear, I'm not defending Will in the least. I think he deserves everything he's receiving. But this has a bit of a stink about it as well. Or at least that's how it appears to me.
zube

Dear Jonie,

As the poem in question was in fact an example of Plagiarism/Copyright, I feel that it has everything to do with the subject.

Perhaps because it doesn't coincide with your belief it is destined to the scrap heap.

I know how I see it. Thank you for your narrow mindedness and missinterpritation of all that I have said.

Jon

Jon, I understood the story. I am neither narrowminded nor stupid. If the dear Reverend reproduced the poem for the use of his congregation, he erred. That was forty years ago.

You said that the words of the poem said it all. You were obviously referring to the allusion to the high-minded. However, I would point out to you that those of us on this thread are not being haughty and high-minded. Nor are we talking about an archaic poem mistakenly attributed to a minister a long time ago. We are talking about current ethics, in current publications, under the modern day interpretation of plagarism.

Joanie

Oh, and once again you are trying to make a connection between what others have done (intentionally or not) and what we are discussing now (see post #2)

Other people have done many wrong things. This does not give us the right to do them. Many people enjoy cockfighting. But if such a thing is illegal, it is illegal. It may not have been forty or eighty or a hundred years ago, but it is illegal and also considered to be disgusting now.

Joanie