I totaly agree here, even stronger. Let me tell you a story.

Some art critics got some work they had to judge, they judged it as very mature work, of what they thought, made by a very good artist. Afterwards they were told, that the art was made by monkeys.

For me bonsai is/isn't art, It's the way I see my tree. I'll obviously try to make a copy of a mature tree in the woods, mountains or coastline. As you all know trees differ a lot depending where they stand. For instance, you hardly see cascade in a flat country, like Holland or coastal area's. Here you see much more upright and windswept trees.
So it may depend where you live, what you see in a bonsai.

When you feel good at the work you're doing, why shouldn't that be good, regardless of how the tree according to critics should look like.

This is my opinion.

Wessel

Again, I have to disagree with you Ron, since you brought it up.

I can't say that creating art is all about techniques. You can learn to culivate bonsai with techniques and become quite good at it, however, the art comes from artistic talent + technique. You can learn techniques until you can quote, teach, demo them with your eyes closed but to use them in such a way to create art requires talent.

Art is the logical direction for bonsai, to bring a bonsai to an artistic level is the basest goal and to go in any other direction leads only to healthy potted plants.


Will Heath

Sounds like untalented and unskilled critics to me, should the art world suffer because of this or should the critics suffer? By your own logic then the monkeys proved what? That there is no such thing as art?



So, since I do not live in a tropical climate, I am unable to see art in a tropical bonsai? Good art transcends boundaries Wes, I can see the beauty of Van Gogh's "Trees in the Garden of Saint-Paul Hospital" even though I have never been there. Or appreciate Monet's "Poplars on the Epte" without ever walking the banks of the Epte.

Not all trees in nature are artistic, I have a few hundred dying elms up north that are anything but. If I copy these, then I will not have art.



It's all good Wes. But to advance you got to see beyond the feel good and step up and admit that there is more to aspire to. Of course, no one has to advance.


Will Heath

Fred
Contrary to popular belief I am in fact entitled to an opinion. You do not have to agree with that opinion.
Why do feel it necessary to try and stifle any opinion that does not totally agree with yours.
If you want to talk art then go ahead and do it. No one has said that you couldn't. Express your opinion on the subject. You have my permission.
Just for once in your life you might consider that there is always more than one side of a story. Your side might not be the one that everyone agrees with all the time. Try being a little tolerant. That is what grownups do.
And for heavens sake stop being so paranoid. I am not lurking here to just pounce on everything you post.
But when and if I have something to say on a subject I will say it. I wont ask your permission.

Art is not created by just talking about it. One has to go out there and do it.
That is where learning come in. Knowledge is a handy thing to have when one is trying to create anything

Ron,

There is a concept in psychology called projection, a Freudian defense mechanism defined as "A defense mechanism, operating unconsciously, whereby that which is emotionally unacceptable in the self is rejected and attributed (projected) to others."

Carl (aka Fred?) was very factually pointing out that in any discussion of art on this forum, you do not add to the discussion, you try to halt it. I do not think your permission was being sought. What was being asked of you was if you do not like to talk about art in a philosophical fashion on the internet, why be so negative and disruptive in these threads? It doesn't help you (unless you are relieving some unconscious emotionally unacceptable feelings by projecting these onto others), but it makes it unpleasant trying to have the discussion. The people discussing bonsai art are entitled to an opinion, so why are you trying to stifle an opinion that does not totally agree with yours? Just for once in your life you might consider that there is always more than one side of a story. Your side might not be the one that everyone agrees with all the time. Try being a little tolerant. That is what grownups do. And for heavens sake stop being so paranoid. I am not lurking here to just pounce on everything you post.

.
I guess after all that professional analyzing I owe you some money.
You are a bit off base but that is nothing new. But I guess you are just expressing your opinion. And , my friend , you are entitled to have one.
Say hi to Andy for me;o)

Gentlemen,peace be with you. Bonsai, be it the art of, the craft of, the practice of, is far, far more important than any of us, no matter what place in the bonsai hierarchy that any one individual may be found. Let us not allow semantics to blind us to this principle.

Kind Regards

Mike

Ron,

I had really been wondering all this time why you are so angry. Then, out of the blue, you mentioned Andy. Riddle solved. With this piece of the puzzle I am able to adhere to Mike's wiser words of peace.

Don't read so much into it. I just wanted you to say hi to him for me. Not a big deal.