Of course! We all are! Just in varying degrees, right?

The answer to that question is no. Just as not every student in an art class is an artist. I am not yet an artist, I aspire to be one, I study to be one, I hope one day to be called one. (Although I can be passionate and a wee bit moody )

You are not an artist just because you say you are any more than a person is a expert just because he says he is.

Growing bonsai does not make you a artist any more than a person is a carpenter just because he owns the tools.

The carpenter needs to realize that there is an art, a craftsmanship to fine quality work and practice towards that end. People can tell fine craftsmanship from mass produced garbage even if they can't quite describe how.

A bonsaist needs to realize that there is an art to bonsai and study also towards that end. People can also tell fine craftsmanship and artful quality/design from garbage in bonsai even if they can't quite decribe how.

Will

Hi Will

That is a good way to express what (I think) we all feel.

No one is an artist until someone else says you are. Until then you aspire!

Aspiration needs example and guidance and this forum is a good way to find them (if you look hard enough).

Aspiration is good, aspiration is progress.

Mike

Thank you.

I don't see or understand why there has to be a battle of wits over this issue. Outside of a string on the nature of bonsai soil, this one on art seems to boil the pot to over flowing. However; Smoke makes an assumption at the begining that is not accurate. He assumes that bonsai is made up of all these rules and sensibilities we all have come to recognize as the traditional Japanes model. When it comes to expressing bonsai I am with him, I prefer the more or less Japanese approach. That's just for me, your point of view is for you, equally valid and we can argue back and forth about it till our hard drives go soft.

Here is the wrench in the works. Bonsai is defined as a tree in a pot (more or less). So technically, a street tree planted in one of those humungous concrete planters on the side of the road is a bonsai, just by the definition of the word.

If someone wants to advance and improve their skill in their perception of bonsai they should ask advise from someone with the same point of view and understanding of the art as theirs. If you think a tree tied in a knot with a tiny scale model tire swing hanging from the branches is bonsai then be the best you can be at this concept of bonsai. Just don't get mad at me if I disagree with you. After all what is good for the goose is good for the gander is it not? If you expect me to accept your concept of bonsai you must also be willing to accept mine, or at least my right to do so.

However the majority of the bonsai comunity has this stylized picture in their collective mind created by those from the Japanese traditional interpretation of bonsai as an art. You can disagree but, unless you are really good at what you are doing to the point that you have a bunch of really passionate deciples doing bonsai your way, you are going to have a tough road changing that point of view. After all, art is not defined by rules, the rules are defined by others' perception of art as performed by the acknowledged masters and put forward as an attempt to analyize the masters' accomplishment. If you don't care for this modle then follow another, but you can't expect others to follow unless what you are doing redefines the rules, not just break them.

Attached Images

Laugh.gif (8.5 KB, 161 views)

Ron: This argument/debate has come up in many places over the last ten years I have been on the internet bonsai bedlam. I think I have read every post and responded to many of them and it al boils down to what I said above, do your own thing you are allowed, just don't expect everybody to understand or follow. Sadly today art is defined not by any set of rules etc, but only by, one person's ability to place the term art on it, no matter what it is.

Vance
From what I have seen the only place that the big flap is raging is on the internet. Not too sure why this is but it does seem to be one of those computer things.
Put the word "art" in a post and the counter clicks madly away. Tempers fly, feelings are hurt and for the most part nothing else is accomplished. Post something informative, explain a technique, and the counter just sets there.
Only a few read it and the thread soon dies.
Happily this is not the same in the "face to face" world. There people show up for information and usually leave early when the art discussion starts. At least in the circles that I travel in.
I find that most people are keenly aware of what art is and want to know how to create it. They want "how to " information. They want to learn techniques more than to debate a hopeless issue.
Maybe bonsaial had it right when he said that the internet was for entertainment and not for learning. (not his exact words but as close as I can remember)

Yet another attempt to marginalize discussions of art and artistry.

I don't do ficus, but I don't go posting this sort of thing to every thread about ficus. Ron, why do you post this sort of thing to every thread about art?

-Carl