Well, the question that comes to my mind in reading all these comments is o you have to be an artist to create a tree that can be called a bonsai according to the rules ?
If it was so, I certainly would not be involved in trying to do bonsai as I am trying today because I know very little of the rules of art. When I decided 2 years ago to make a try in bonsais, all the references and web sites I reffered to did not mention anything about the artisitic part of bonsai. They gave the different rules for styling bonsai and the horticultural needs for keeping the trees alive.
So, since in my career I was involved in agricultural sciences, I knew I had enough horticultural knowledge to be successful in growing a tree in a pot and keep it alive. What I needed to find out is what are the established rules for making a successful bonsai and the different methods bonsaists take to style trees according to the species and the so many different styles that can be used. I found this information in all the good web sites that explained the methods used for making a good bonsai, especially in this forum.
One thing that I learned for sure is that a person must have a good horticultural knowledge to grow a tree as a bonsai and to be able to keep it alive for as long as possible. After mastering this very important initial basic part, the person must then learn the rules of styling. This can be learned by practise and experience and maybe this is also where the art part can be used to improve the looks of the tree.
But if you are not an artist can you still suceed in creating a good bonsai? If this is true it would just be a matter of luck for a person who only applied the rules of styling without bothering with those of art. So, the only thing I can say is that you must be a very good horticulturist for creating and maintaining a good bonsai but you don’t really have to be an artist unless you plan to make a masterpiece and in this case you can possible get help from an artist to obtain such a result.

Well actually, yes.



When the finer side of styling becomes more of a challenge than keeping them alive, you have pasted into the realm of a artist.
(I love you too kid )

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Aplain old dictionary can solve most of these debates, if one actually takes the time to understand what is being said instead of thinking that their beginning efforts at bonsai is being attacked.

ART

Human effort to imitate, supplement, alter, or counteract the work of nature.

Skill that is attained by study, practice, or observation: the art of the baker; the blacksmith's art.

Skill arising from the exercise of intuitive faculties: “Self-criticism is an art not many are qualified to practice” (Joyce Carol Oates).

A system of principles and methods employed in the performance of a set of activities

The conscious production or arrangement of sounds, colors, forms, movements, or other elements in a manner that affects the sense of beauty

It takes a effort to create art, and yes as with all things there are some happy accidents, but don't hold your breath. There are more chance failures than successes.

_______________________________

I have said this before and I feel it needs repeating. Anyone is free to grow anything anyway they want in whatever manner they choose just don't expect it to stand unnoticed beside actual artful bonsai. And when it is called what it is, don't get your panties all in a knot because of it.

It is okay to be a backyarder. But do not pretend to be growing bonsai for any other reason than to achieve a quality bonsai, any other reason is simply a lie. Once we agree on that, then we can all learn how to achieve that common goal and the first step is to admit that without the basic principles of art and design in mind, that goal will never be reached.

With respect,

Will heath

okay, i have been biting my tongue for a while now, but i can't stand back and watch someone trashing people!!!
will, what gives? ever since you started our last contest, you have portrayed yourself in a manner that can only be described as snobbish!!! get off your high horse long enough to see that comments like you've made here and other places are the reason that people become offended enough not to want to participate. for example,
"Like a painter, if you're good the end result of bonsai is indeed art, even though you may not see it or believe it. OH yes, if you're bad the end result is crap in a pot, even if you don't see or believe it.
Thanks smoke, please do not let a few comments from the backyarders and such stop you from posting. Since they don't want to be in this discussion, even though they made sure they were, maybe I can learn something here in spite of them."
you may disagree with the reasons people post, but calling fred and virtuald "backyarders", as if to say that their amatuer views don't matter, what the hell is that? aren't we all amatuers? or do you now equate yourself with the masters? and as far as "crap in a pot" which you so subtley called my white pine in this thread, http://forum.bonsaitalk.com/showpos...17&postcount=16, i have to say that although we may not live up to your almighty standards and ability, most of us are here to learn how to learn from the crap in a pot and maybe even produce a good bonsai some day. most of us are hobbyists, nothing more than "backyarders", but to use terms like that to talk down to us is unacceptable, period.

smoke, i am sorry to have used your thread for a response other than what was intended, my response to it is this:

bonsai, like any other art form (as referred to here), is whatever the artist makes it. there are standards in place to guide us to what is assumed to be correct for bonsai, but rules are made to be broken, improved upon. for example, i have a common geranium in my gallery, i have maintained it at its current height for about two years and been able to minimize the size of the pot it was in drastically. it is by no means a great bonsai the likes of walter, nick lenz, and others, but it is a bonsai. is this plant typically used? no, but does that make it less of a bonsai? is it less of a bonsai because i have not wired it? i have tried to depict it in an artistic fashion and had to care for it like any other plant used for bonsai (ie:root pruning, pruning, watering, fertilizing, etc.) i hope this example answers at least part of your question.

chris

Hmmm must of touched a nerve or two, i guess.

Could you show me exactly where I called anyone directly a backyarder or for that matter where I called your white pine crap in a pot? Is it not true that I have never been so rude and insulting as you are being right now?

Master? Me? hardly. I have said over and over again that I am here to learn and if anything, I have always downplayed what little experience I do have.

Snobbish? Yes I am. I am snobbish against misinformation, bad advice and people who jump to conclusions.

Will

show you where, look at the first line of the second paragraph of the quote i used! look, i am not trying to start the whole thing up again, nor am i trying to be rude or insulting, i am simply spelling out the reasons that my opinion has developed as it has. if you want to jump to conclusions, be my guest. i certainly don't want to see any more of this type of commenting on the forum, stuff that can be portrayed or understood to be harmful. i'll give you credit will, you have, of late, brought some good to the forum as well. personally, i don't care anymore how you or anyone else here wants to conduct themselves or how they view their own conduct. what i don't want to see is a guy like fred, who has been quite helpful to me and others, decide to leave like al did, nor do i want to leave for that matter. i just think we all need to sit back and ask ourselves exactly how helpful, how useful we are being to this forum. thats why i wrote this, http://forum.bonsaitalk.com/showthread.php?t=9124. a few people agreed with me publicly and i have recieved a pm or two in agreement as well. will, i am not trying to start anything, or for that matter create anything bitter between you and i, but just for a second, look at some of the things you've said, the way they were said, and you might even discover that you could alienate people that way. and if by saying what i have said i have alienated anyone, i sincerely apologize for trying to voice my opinion and maintain a friendly atmosphere in which to discuss bonsai.

chris

Chris,

I don't want to be part of a forum where people will settle for mediocre bonsai, where it is not okay to tell someone that they have something that is not up to par.

I don't want to be mislead into thinking that striving for a higher goal, more artistic bonsai, higher learning and thoughts is snobbish or that a casual approach is the same as a serious approach and that any twig is a bonsai if you just do it for relaxation.

I don't want to be told that I am on the right track just so my feelings won't get hurt, I want to be torn down and rebuilt if I am wrong.

I don't want to be part of a leveling of the playing field. I want high standards and I want to be forced to live up to them. I do not want the forum to come down to my level I want to raise to it's level.

If you post crap then you need to be told it. If you give advice you better be able to defend it. If you say you are experienced then darn well post the pics to prove it.

Giving advice that you read elsewhere is not the same as actual hands-on experience. I can read also, but I am here to learn from people with actual hands-on experience and the results to prove it. When these few folks say I have a piece of crap, I toss it. To do anything else is to say I know better than they do and I might as well just proclaim myself to be unteachable.

Anything else just hurts the forum and every single member in it.

I've raised my bar and if that offends anyone, then I may suggest that they raise theirs also.


Will

believe it or not will, i agree with what you just said about the standards here and raising the bar. i'd like to take it a step further though and say that it's not alright to just tell someone they have a peice of crap. you must say why you think so. it can't be expected that people are going to just throw it away if a few others think that that is best. crow told me a while ago that my tree was crap (in not so many words) so i decided to use it to learn on and with. sure, i could go get more expensive, better material and learn on it with hopes that what i do is correct and it survives, but thats not the approach i choose. i would rather learn on something that will never amount to much, no false hope there and no disappointment at the end, but if i learn from it, i can make more expensive material not only correct, but make it survive as well. that is all just a matter of opinion really. i would just assume tell someone," your tree sucks, its all wrong" and then say why rather then ending my comment there. i guess we both want the same thing and have different approaches, i will try to be more mindful of that and apologize for being harsh earlier. hope you can accept.

chris

Accepted and forgot. We have a common goal it seems.

I too apologize for any words of my own that you interpreted as being harsh, snobbish, or condescending.

Enjoy the day Chris,

Will

This is kinda in direct conflict with your signature, is it not?

"Shout if you will, but that just won't do
I for one would rather follow softer options...."