Hello all, long time listener, first time caller.

While lurking here for many months it becomes painfully clear that some here are very mixed up about what bonsai is.

• "Some think that it is OK to plant anything into a bonsai pot and call it bonsai."
• "Some think that it is Ok to twist some wire on said plant and call it a styled bonsai."
• "Some think that it is Ok to grow this tree for 5 years and call it a finished bonsai."

Bonsai is about using trees from nursery or hillside and affixing mans intent to the tree while adhering to simple rules of artistry to achieve an evocative representation of nature.

Some simple rules that may change a plant in a pot to a bonsai.

Bonsai is ordered. It is mans attempt at creating. It is not haphazard. Everything in bonsai serves a purpose.

Bonsai is harmonious. Branches and trunk are ordered. They feed off each other. While the trunk tapers, so should each branch as it moves up the tree.

Bonsai is dramatic. Bonsai can be designed with specific goals in mind. The specie of tree might dictate that a tree will be shown in winter rather then summer. That tree will have many good branches and magnificent taper. This tree will have fantastic ramification. While a tree styled to be shown in summer may have some minor flaws that will be hidden among a glorious summer canopy. Dramatic use of deadwood, or hollowed trunks may intensify the age and drama of bonsai, but should be well thought out and make sense in the overall design plan. To introduce dead wood and hollowed trunk on a perfectly healthy young plant is not the most prudent path to take in the overall scope of bonsai. One has to ask why?

So, what is the standard that judges what makes a plant in a pot bonsai?
How about “Ordered Design” “Harmonious Movement” and “Dramatic Imagery”.

If a person is working towards these goals, would not that define an artist? Would not this alone define much more then a plant in a pot?
Would this now be something worthy of an art called bonsai?

I would be curious to find out what some of the other folks that do bonsai here find are the standards that make a plant in a pot bonsai.

Curious, Smoke

Smoke,

Welcome to the forum.

My standards are that a bonsai becomes more than nature, more than the material that is used. The negative space with the positive spaces put together in a skillful, knowledgeable, artistic manner to make the whole greater than the sum of it's parts.


Bonsai is art!


Will

Artists are agents of the process of creation.


Artists themselves are works in progress. Look at an artist's paintings ten years from now and they will be different from what he or she is producing today.

Artists do not have to be producers of masterpieces to be artists. Artists do not have to justify their existence to the masses to be artists. They simply create things.

Andy Warhol and Michealangelo are artists, though their level of talent may be debated by those who are more comfortable debating than creating.

We can debate what is art and what is not and we can defend our formulas until we are out of breath. But the artist can ignore us and create beautiful and mysterious things

If I want to call myself a bonsai artist (I didn't say master) I can, and there isn't much anyone can do to silence my spirit. I may never be as talented as Walter Pall (though I strive to be), but that doesn't negate or dismiss me.

So there.


Dam, I told myself I was going to stay out of these "art" discussions. Crud.

I can't take this question seriously. This said after I almost got sucked into making a serious and impassioned response. I, for one, am not about to get involved in another dispute over this deceptive and misleading question which would provide a field day for any serious student of Semantics. Sam Hayakawa, where are you when we need you!!!

Fred

The merit of this thread will be measured by those that DON'T participate.

You participated by simply posting. Why the derog remark?



you just involved yourself, if you really didn't want to have a disscussion concerning smokes topic why make a post at all?



The first step is to admit you're actually attempting to create art. There are support groups I hear.

Seems like the people who are most adamant about not having or being involved in discussions like these are the ones who post. I for one enjoy them, do I not have a right to have a serious conversation along the lines that smoke brought up without the off topic, derogatory, patronizing comments?

Like a painter, if you're good the end result of bonsai is indeed art, even though you may not see it or believe it. OH yes, if you're bad the end result is crap in a pot, even if you don't see or believe it.

Thanks smoke, please do not let a few comments from the backyarders and such stop you from posting. Since they don't want to be in this discussion, even though they made sure they were, maybe I can learn something here in spite of them.

Will

so are you saying that the plant in a pot requires some artistic flare to become a bonsai?



Giving someone a piece of paper and some paint doesn't mean that they will produce art, it could just end up a mess. Giving someone a pre-bonsai and a few pieces of wire could end up the same way.

Smoke,

I enjoyed your comments. Thinking about what makes a plant in a pot a bonsai is something I imagine most of us have dwelled on for quite some time, and your post seems to approach the summit from the other side of the mountain; a refreshing way to think about it.

Could we simplify your ingredients further to simply state a bonsai is a tree in a pot with ordered design and harmonious movement? Dramatic imagery calls to mind for example Kimura's "Ascending Dancing Dragon", but does it apply to a bunjin? Perhaps a bunjin is dramatic in its simplicity, or is it dramatic because of its order and harmony? As an after thought, is Kimura's Dragon dramatic also because of its order and harmony of not only foliage but also of the deadwood?

I disagree. I think anyone with almost any medium can create art. Just, perhaps, not marketable art. I get tired of elitist, narrow minded views about art . Everyone can be an artist. Of course, not everyone can make stuff that sells to art consumers (unless you factor in ebay ). Art on its own is self expression. Art using standards and rules is measurable and is not black and white. If I want to get out some cheap tempera paints or a wad of playdoh, just to express something spontaneously, I am "doing art" that means something to me. If I want to set a blank canvas on my old, worn easel and begin a process of composing a painting which follows well accepted standards of good composition, use of color, balance of lights and darks, interesting application of texture, and provocative subject matter, (etc etc), then maybe I can end up with something that conforms more to what others would percieve as art. Either way, I'm making art, regardless of what critics say. Case in point; have you seen works by Kandinski or Jackson Pollock? There are those who might say their works aren't really art. Some critics even said as much about Picasso's early works. Now their names are as recognizable as apple pie.



Fair point, Will...I just think these discussions can get a little tedious and overextended after a while, that's all. And, as my participation illustrates, sometimes I'm willing to enter that once in a while. But your point is well taken. To each his own, I guess.

Earthgirl, you said exactly what I feel. I do not think that "art" as defined in a box by what some call "elitists" is the only kind of art there is. Art, in my view, encompasses many forms (and talent levels) of self-expression. From the Rembrandts to the scrapbooking homemaker: all is art. Not all is necessarily good or even marketable art (not that good and marketable are one in the same). Thanks for your input.


Will, darlin', I love ya but... can't you be a "backyarder" and an artist? I have no idea where bonsai will take me in the future, and I will leave my options wide open. I am still learning how to keep my poor little trees alive (let alone perfectly style them), so I have been advised by a wise person that I am a "beginner artist". I would agree. But I hope I will one day become a truly talented bonsai artist---whether that means just for my own pleasure (backyarder) or for more grandiose exposure, its hard to tell. But I would be an artist regardless.

Jennifer