One man's art is another's caca. In our culture the reverse can also be true, one man's caca is another's art. Not to long ago a so called artist took a bowle movement in a mason jar and sold it to a museum in Ohio for around $5000. This was during the Maplethorpe controversy.

If you do bonsai or fill mason jars with excrement as an expression of your soul, or spirit or just the love of it then to you it is art and technically you are an artist. To be an artist does not mean that you are a good one. A lot of people think Andy Worhole a great artist, to me he is not, though I acknowledge that he is an artist; to me he is a bad one. It is when other people start recognizing and emulating your work that your art has reached beyond the boundries of your own expressing and touched the artist in somone else.

A few more items that seem to be treated with distain by some.

- Fast growing indoor bonsai , are they "Bonsai"?

Should one who develops a interest later in life be denied the pleasure of growing?

Should one in a cold climate only be able to enjoy bonsai a few months out of the year?

- "House plant" bonsai - are they bonsai?

What about a person who can't water daily, should they be allowed to use soil mixes that retain water or plants tolerant of dry conditions?

My point is are such adaptions bonsai or frowned upon? Consider the enjoyment to be had to the person, growing and enjoying a plant within their lifespan and limitations. Is this forbiden to call them bonsai? Is a tolerant Portulacaria afra or ivy grown indoors a bonsai?

Gerry,

It's really about the potential of the tree. "Indoor fast growing bonsai" like ficus and schefflera have been developed into world class bonsai. Take a look at fukubonsai.com. If the tree you start with is nice, then the bonsai will be (mostly).

THe problem is that indoor material is commonly used by fast buck purveryors of high priced junk. If the buyer doesn't really care about being a bonsai arteest and enjoys growing plants in containers, then have at it. No one "frowns" on such material, really. Bonsai is about enjoying plants and artistry in whatever form one desires.

Thanks for the reply and link! I was wondering if I'd be "shunned" by bonsai traditionalists. I wish to enjoy learning the art of producing bonsai but don't have decades to grow them. Also, I wish to enjoy them all year in a cold climate.

After learning, I'd like to use them as gifts with some hope they will survive. This means trying soils and plant material that allows less than daily maintenance. My local bonsai supplier has been very helpful in suggesting varieties to start with given my goals. Fortunately, he is a true artist, without reservations on the plant material used.

I've started with Portulacaria afra, which is fast growing under my HID lights. This gives me a lot of material to make mistakes on! I'm learning styling on the original pre-bonsai I purchased and have many cuttings to learn trunk development with. Already it is clear that fast growth alone is not sufficient for artistic trunk development. The ones I've started styling seem very tolerant of anything but wet feet. (indoor temperatures)

I also am trying ivy that doesn't require a dormant phase, training two pre-bonsai and starting cuttings. They will be moved outdoors in the summer for trunk development. They seem very tolerant of moist feet, thus might do well with a very different soil mix if daily watering isn't feasible.

Maybe some fiscus or other next year ;-)

gerry

All this discussion about bonsai as art, and the artistry needed to create world class bonsai, brought this thought to mind.
Back in the 16th, 17th, 18th centuries in Europe, musicians/composers of great skill and artistry had wealthy patrons of the royal class to support them while they produced music, and performed for the elite.
Would a modified form of this system work for deserving bonsai artists?
Commercial establishments that make their money in horticultural and bonsai related activities could sponsor deserving artists to produce artistic bonsai for them to exhibit and sell.
Well, maybe I'm nuts, but I thought this might be worth some discussion.

Mike Page

Mike, The Japanese have developed this process into a bonsai community. As the Art there is totally steeped into the culture, it is not obvious to the casual on looker.

But it does exit. Here in the USA it (I've hoped for this for a long time) might take another 20 or so years to catch. However if the cultivation of bonsai gets just a tad more mainstream...where you see more bonsai nurseries in larger cities, it just might happen a little sooner.

I've 'leased' my bonsai a few times (I insist on being present for a least half the deal) once to a major auto company, and several times to private 'country' clubs. And of course it is a yearly honor for me to be asked by the Japanese Consulate here in Detroit for a few 'shows'. But just because of this, there is some demand.

Now as far as nurseries, well I feel they would have to be bonsai oriented to actually understand the culture and the market. Don't know how long that will take, but at least here in the Detroit area we have over 3000 families transplanted from Mother Japan. But that's still not enough. Don't forget: in Japan, (Ike Iwanaga of NTK Ceramics said to me 20 yrs ago"Bonsai for old people, we like golf!"

Have fun with your bonsai!

It's the tree, not the artist or owner or stylist or enthusiast or bonsaiist or... whatever you call yourself. We are merely caretakers, of all of our possessions, for the next generation... the next owner.

Exacly.Good "completed" bonsai,are ridiculously expensive,and most of what you see for sale,are either poorly designed,or are unoriginal,and are therefore not worth the bucks,even if I could afford them.There are exceptions,and I guess my trees are amoung them,even though I am entirely self-taught.Two years ago,I had to raise money for a family member's medical bills.I had to put my two best trees up for sale, after working on them,for five years.One a wild plum tree,and the other,a five trunk Kabudachi-style elm,both between,and 20-30 years old,and collected myself.They sold for a combined $3000 .

Great thread! I AM a bonsai artist. I am an artist in general.I draw, I play guitar, I paint,I shape mashed potatoes into things. I create. I for one would LOVE the idea of someone giving me money for one of my trees, and then continually paid me even MORE money to come and trim the thing. Well see you guys later i'm off to purchase the rights to Yojimbo and enter the Cannes film festival. LOL Why don't we just say what we are trying to say here,..."We need collectors to vallidate ourselves,and make more money from what we love doing, please bring your checkbook, and sign in at the front desk." This trees not PININ' it's BLEEDIN DEED!

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You wrote I couldn't have said it better! Most of us are too modest or self-concious to call ouselves something as seemingly pretentious ,or egotistical as an "artist",in the same way,as someone who plays music,or does world class woodworking in thier garage,but has never sought out attention.