Chadster,
Thats a whole lotta new directions to talk about. Maybe it should be a new Thread.

Let me just say that I think you may be over reacting. No one is forcing you to do anything. We all "do" and enjoy bonsai. When we are done it is fun to sit and stare at the little monitor and talk more about it.

What a few years have taught me.

1.Don't worry about bonsai politics if you don't like them. Stay aloof of the debate, its your choice. Only believe half of what you read and less of what you hear.

2.Never talk about a collegue in a negative manner. You may get lucky and they won't talk badly about you.

3.Can you learn from others? , of course, everybody's got something to teach you if your're humble and quiet enough to listen.

4. Never ever underestimate the power of the John (Naka), he was simply the best teacher, funniest speaker, best ambassador the bonsai world has ever known. God bless him. I hope he lives forever.

Thanks for the above comment Bonsainut.
Listening to John's presentations was allways a magical experience to me. He is down-to-earth, unpretentious and wickedly funny. People who count him as part of the elite, far removed from the crowd don't really know him. His simplicity (such as in wabi-sabi) and love for the art is unparalleled.

Attila

I just reread this thread and I am still amazed at just how good a thread can actually be. Threads like these made me better than what I thought I was...

Will

I just read this thread and decided I would concur with a "collector" entering a bonsai in a contest only if the "prize" goes to the artist, not the collector.

In every contest I have participated in, and/or attended, I have NEVER, EVER known such a situation to take place. I don't even remember the artist being addressed, just "whose" bonsai it was.

If I was to sell a bonsai to someone (and I have), I am relinquishing all rights to its ownership, I realize this. However, if one day after purchasing it the new "owner" were to enter it it a contest and win, do they really deserve an award? No, the bonsai does, I completely agree with this aspect, but the bonsai can't hammer in the nail to hang the plaque can it?

So much in the world is decided without knowing the WHOLE truth. I do not agree with a collector receiving an award solely becuase they own the bonsai. In our club, we "informally" require a substantial change by the CURRENT owner to the styling of the bonsai (examples are pot change, re-wiring of branches/placement, etc.), or ownership for five years or more. I have always considered this a fair requirement. It inherently INVOLVES the owner with the bonsai styling, even if watering and fertilizing are all that they did. This makes them more than just an owner.

One last remark. if I sell a bonsai that I have won awards with, should I include those awards with the tree to the new owner? That question gets down to the "brass tacks".

Just my opinion, not necessarily a good one.

John

John,

It's easy to see your point, and that you are trying to be fair to the artist.
Giving the award to the owner is a matter of practicality. In many cases, exceptional trees had many artists working on them, over decades, if not centuries. Some artists may be dead. In other cases the artist(s) are not even known to the owner. It would be impossible to sort out all the convoluted lineages or artists working on the tree.

The only possibility is to give the award to the owner. Owners usually aren't crooks, who would lie whether or not they are the original artists of the work they display. So, what's wrong with giving them the awards? They deserve a lot of credit for giving us a chance to see those trees. Would we be better off if they kept them in their backyard (or on top of their TV sets) just because they did not create them? The award given to them is also an encouragement to keep those trees in show condition and show them to as many people as they can. If we just dismiss them because they are not the Artist, why would they go through the trouble of transporting, setting up, worrying for their safety.

Should we force them to tell everybody at the show: "Hey, I know you like my tree, but you should know that I am NOT the artist"?

That would probably be the last time that we saw their tree.

Just my thoughts on this.

Attila

Edit: BTW, when the awards are given, it is clearly stated the X and Y is the owner of the tree. It is never inplied that they created it.

I have often observed the seemingly endless circular discussions of what an artist is and does and how to become one etc. And I find Mr Rutledge’s thread an extension of the same phenomena. I’m not sure, but it appears to me that there is an increasing need in community to stand up and label itself as such and such. “I’m an artist, I’m a collector, I’m neither but I am a hobbyist etc etc.” Where is the modesty in calling yourself an “artist”, a term that is bandied about so causally nowadays. To be an artist means that you have reached the pinnacle of your craft, it is a title bestowed upon by others who recognize that you excel. No one has the right to confer it upon them selves. Who says that you produce art? You cannot be your own judge and jury on these matters. So arrogant and egotistical!



The reality is that labeling is ego driven and irrelevant, whoever has an interest in bonsai is a practitioner in some form or another. Everybody who has bonsai is a collector, an enthusiast, a grower and a hobbyist. To do and own and practice bonsai means that you are all those things and that is the wonder of bonsai. How many “Crafts” offer the breadth and depth that the craft of Bonsai encompasses. The goal is to master your craft, whether you buy a masterpiece or grow your trees from seed, it is your mastery of the craft that will raise you above the mediocre. A masterpiece will fade and die under mediocre care, a small sapling can will become a masterpiece under the care of a master craftsman.



It would be wonderful if people looked a little deeper at them selves and realize that any label categorizes them into a pigeon hole of mediocrity. Look outward and expand rather than retract into label. If you must, choose a title for yourself that has breadth and allows you room to grow.



I have noticed in Bonsai Today magazine (having not ever visited Japan, I cannot talk with first hand experience) that many Japanese people own bonsai which are cared and styled by a recognized master of their craft. And why not! These trees are treasures and should be cared for by the most experienced. They are also looked upon as investments and all investments should be carefully managed. The elite exhibitions display these trees and give awards based on the merits of the tree, not so much on who styled it. WHY? Because they realize that a 300 yr old tree will have had many owners and carers and stylists that have all contributed to the present shape and form of the tree. Only in the west are we so arrogant to forget that. Maybe it is because bonsai is a young art form in the west and single ownership of a tree is the norm. Lets look at other art exhibitions and contests. In a portraiture competition is the prize given to the most established painter? At the Olympics, does a coach get a medal if their charge wins? Of course not, it goes to the object (or in the Olympics, athlete) of most merit. In an exhibition it matters little who the craftsman is, it is the tree that is paramount.



Something seems to have gotten right up my nose!



Paul

' To be an artist means that you have reached the pinnacle of your craft, it is a title bestowed upon by others who recognize that you excel. No one has the right to confer it upon them selves. Who says that you produce art? You cannot be your own judge and jury on these matters. So arrogant and egotistical!'

Paul,

as much as I undersand what you are saying and why I want to point out something. These statements are ony 'TRUE' in your culture. In most parts of Europe one can carry the self applied title artist, in Latin countries one does carry the title 'master'. While I would never call myself master, I call myself artist freely. This is most normal in my culture.
this is an international forum. Most Americans are under the impression that when English is spoken in a forum the American culture applies. I know that they are well meaning, not even second guessing it. But once in a while one should remind them.
I hope you understand that this is only an observation for good reasons, no personal attack not general anti-Americanism.

Walter,

It would be silly of me to take umbrage from your reply. One cannot be thin skinned on the forums.

Of course I am more familiar with American culture than European, and willl not argue a point there. My wife, who is a sculptor, and I often discuss this topic as one art award after another is given to the work that is the most sensationalist and least crafted, the emphasis being on the concept. The skill of artist/craftsman has certainly been argued since Marcel Duchamp started signing toilet bowls and offering them up as artworks. But in my culture, is anyone so self aware that they can honestly say they have made a work of art without it being ego driven. I wonder if Rodin called himself an artist or a Sculptor. I myself hesitate to use the term artist when I look at my trees.

My wife first became aware of the Craft or Art conflict while studying Maiolica in Deruta, Italy, some sixteen odd years ago. Her Italian teacher would only call herself an artisan. I know that here in Australia many call themselves artists that possess little skill. Here the intellectual idea or the process of creation has become the important aspect in art. A recent book that has been published titled "The End of Art" also deals with this topic. My point is of course, if everybody calls themselve an artist, no matter how mediocre they are. What does a real artist, with honed skills and intellect, call himself?

Thanks for your comments, I just feel the term Artist has lost a lot of its integrity

Paul

I would argue that the nature of the artist is the ego. One could not be without the other,

Will Heath

The art vs. ego battle is as old as the art itself.

In a book, written by Salvadore Dali (50 Secrets of Magic Craftmanship), he made fun of Renoir in a very condescending way. He said that poor Renoir, he was so unskilled and untalented in drawing that you couldn't tell the difference if he had drawn with his foot.

Now that's a big ego right there.

Would anybody dispute that Renoire was a pretty good artist? In spite of Dali's offensive remarks?

Dali on the other hand called himself the greatest artist ever born, right after Rembrandt and Da Vinci, whom he considered better than himself.

Ego and artist, sometimes feed off each other.