Andy, thank you for this thread...

You have brought up one of the most simple but important facts that I am still attempting to learn. It's all about the tree.
No matter what we do , who we look too or how we progress, the tree is the thing that matters.

Sure I get more appreciation (personal) out of a tree that I have trained than to one which I have obtained partially or totally trained. But, this does not take away from the fact of which tree is more atistically presented and which is simply...Better.

I have been in a club contest/show where I knew some of the trees were at best owned for but a few weeks. These trees were easily better than mine, they won, as they should. But it does not stop me from attempting to improve my ability and my trees to possible win in the future (OK distant future).

If I was in a show of arts ability... then I would have been pi$$ed off. But the show was to present 'your' best trees. When this is the rules the outcome may not be to everyones liking but it is fair!

my 2 cents from a tired camper
Jay

I got a hold of 20 years of back issues of "Ceramics Monthly". Bonsai pottery is my new mania. It is so funny that they have had this same running debate in ceramics through the years.

To boil it down they ALL consider themselves artists. It's a given. But, they classify themselves as amateur or professional.

I quote a bonsai hero of mine, Dennis Makashima who said at bonsaiathon that "we are all bonsai amateurs and are learning together".

As I said last night on Bonsai chat, I just do bonsai, that's all.

I am an amateur,

There is an old gentleman that lives not far from me. He has a small bonsai collection. No great shakes ( he did after all buy them all from me ) But he likes them and does worry about them.
He can't get around too much. He is confined to a wheelchair and is more than a little frail. But he does go out and set in the yard with HIS trees when the weather isn't too bad. He has a great passion for them. Talks about them constantly.

I stop by occasionally and do some trimming on them for him. One of his neighbors does the watering.

Me I have lots of trees. And I do have a fairly healthy body. I do my own trimming, styling etc. On occasion I also teach others to do bonsai .

But I do think both me and that old gentleman do bonsai. Just maybe in spirit he does it better than I.
Some would call him just a collector. Me I call him a bonsaiiest, maybe even a little bit of an artist.

I don't think of him as "just a collector" no more than he thinks that they are "Ron's trees" setting in his back yard.

Enjoyment in bonsai can come in many ways. Our art needs both collectors and artists. We don't have enough of either. And the art does suffer because of it.

I for one am more impressed with a beautiful bonsai than how it got on the table in front of me.

Hi Matt,

Surely you understand that my alternative to untrained nursery stock is not $100 bonsai. I'm sure that you know that bonsai material that is trained and is in a bonsai pot is widely available for $50 or less. Sometimes a lot less.

The fact is that those just starting out will, in most cases, fare far better with trees that already have shallow, compact (healthy) root systems and somewhat mature and trained branch structures than with untrained trees in deep nursery cans that require large hack-backs on top and on the roots - and which are usually suffering from having been shipped in a truck across the country to a foreign climate.

Desu ne?

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
http://www.bonsai365.com/ :: living bonsai every day
zone 8, Texas

The Hanford Bonsai Society has their annual show at the Tulare Fair each year. I just recieved the fair book in the mail the other day. I began to read the rules and noticed that this year the trees have to be defined at the time of registration whether they are acquired or original. I say why? This is a judged event, and they are judging the trees not the owners. The trees are judged with the name cards face down so as to protect the identity of the owner for judging purposes. Seems stupid to me!

Maybe the info is for the viewing public, so they can say" look that guy just bought that from that van in the parking lot, and put it in the fair today. Look, he even got a ribbon... what a hack!"

Al

Carefull Andy, I know people on this forum that will make a mockery of this thread for spreading that fact that a person just starting out can acquire a tree with a "compact healthy root ball, and a great start on branches," for under 50.00 bucks.

Surly you know that stock with a compact and healthy root system is worth hundreds of dollars to the Bonsai Art crowd. Shame on you for helping to reinforce that someone could buy good stock for under 50.00 bucks.

Remeber when you teach on the forum new bonsai newbies will take you at your word and feel that the correct price for stock is 50.00. You have undermined all the good that real field growers do for the bonsai community...

I can't write no more.."gulp " I'm going to go throw up now....
Al

Whoa, ...hold on there, Al.
Be sure to note that what I'm referring to as a "shallow and compact root system" is as opposed to the leggy, deep, large root system found in nursery-canned material at the landscape nursery. This means something that one does not have to reduce by 70% in order to get into a bonsai pot.

Don't misconstrue my words. There is a world of difference between "shallow and compact root system" and an "aesthetically pleasing and technically correct root system." You know this, too, Al. You and those like you are in no danger of being left out in the cold ...unless someone completely misrepresents what I'm saying.

That never happens and you know it.
;-)

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
http://www.bonsai365.com/ :: living bonsai every day
zone 8, Texas

Lets see who has a vested interest to put the ownership before the beauty of the tree.
The talented bonsai artist?
No, that can't be. If you are good, people will know about you and your work. It doesn't matter who exibits your trees. Yourself or someone else. You don't care.

So, who's left?
That's right, THE BONSAI POLITICIANS. The wannabes. People with big egos but not much work to show for (I do NOT count anyone from the Forum into this category, please).

If I bought a tree yesterday and exhibit it today, I will not lie about the artist. To anyone who asks I will tell that the artist is John Naka and I am the proud owner for one day. So John can be proud of himself and I can be proud of both the tree and John.
Am I supposed to be ashamed that I own the tree?
It's nothin wrong with buying works of art. It's only wrong if I lie about it.

And aren't we supposed to encourage the demand for good trees? Imagine a product with plenty of supply and no demand.
That's called a worthless product.

Thanks for the great thread Andy.

Attila
Los Angeles

For those who believe that a bonsai competition should reward the artist's skills and talent, I just want to say that it allways does.

The tree is judged for it's beauty. And the tree speaks for the skill and talent of the artist who created it. No issue remains unsolved. All we need to do is enjoy the show.

Attila

Andy, Unfortunately, I don't think I could find bonsai in pots in any condition or quantity in Northern California for $50 let alone a lot less than $50. Maybe there is a huge untapped niche? There is an import store in the Asian mall that sells some trees typically in the $75 and up range in bonsai pots. They come straight from the greenhouse of the importer. I bought a huge Ponytail Palm there for maybe $150 when they first opened and repotted it right away. I bit my tongue when the shopkeeper's son cautioned me about not watering it and just using a few icecubes around the perimeter. The soil drains now and that pony gets watered every sunny day.


I often see some total cr@p rooted juniper cuttings at Home Depot with the glued on rocks and fishing guy, typically $9.95 on special or $19.95 normally, and I am sure that isn't what you mean.

Just browsing online now, I didn't see much online at Bonsai Northwest for under $50. They have some Hornbeam starters for $35 to $50, but they are in plastic nursery containers. Brussels probably has some material in that range in pots. I am sure there are regional differences in what $50 will buy.

I wonder whether trees with shallow, compact root systems actually do have better survivability when subjected to the vagaries of beginner watering. I think buying an established tree in a small (shallow container) with someone else's potting mix could be pretty disastrous. My stepdaughter got a mini rose in the mail from her boyfriend and almost killed it in three days before I wrested the near-dead thistle from her hands, repotted it in a larger container, and dropped it in the greenhouse out of reach of her watering can and the "dreaded drainage death dish."

For this reason, I do tell those who ask me for suggestions after killing their first bonsai is to get a larger tree and pot than is typically sold to beginners. The volume of soil is a buffer against dehydration and the height helps with drainage when overwatered. When trees are sold as bonsai, economics often demands that the smallest pot that will hold the rootball is used. This makes the tree trunk appear bigger, reduces shipping weight and container cost, but it has the negative affect of starting the beginner out on a precarious edge.

When I read your article the first time, I came away with the impression that we were talking about a higher level of development than you have indicated you were. Now if the tree only has some minor development, I suppose I don't see the cause or the case for bigotry.

If I look over at bonsaiboy.com with the idea of what $50 will buy

http://www.bonsaiboy.com/catalog/sale.html

I would instead head to the garden center with my $50, and look for something rusting in the corner in one of those antique metal cans. When Tosh Subaromaru's Nursery in East Palo Alto closed (could it be 10-12 years ago?) folks had a field day hacking those trees out of the containers and the ground and even the growing benches into which the roots had grown. An estate sale like that or auction is a great place to spend $50, but the trees that I purchased there I always think of Tosh's Oak, Tosh's Maple, Tosh's Pine, even though they scarcely resemble what was growing in the old gentleman's garden at that point in time.



Regards,

Matt