Good idea.

1) Trees should be cremated with the owner.

2) Once the tree is sold, it should never be shown in public again by the subsequent owner, due to the shame of not being the original creator.

....one more: it should be illegal for millionaires to purchase bonsai, unless they are willing to give up their business and spend the next 30 years growing bonsai from seed.

There you have it folks, these measures would really help to bring back the guilt in collecting bonsai and facilitate it to be a poor man's hobby, designed exclusively for beginners. It would also ensure that bonsai would NEVER be considered an art form, since art collectors are the ones who support the artists.


Edit: I almost forgot...

It should be a great shame to make money from selling bonsai...

And please don't forget - no one should ever again be required to contemplate or admire any tree more than about 50 years old - so no trees that have finally reached the maturity that allows for depth and beauty.

A great bonsai is not just created by a single person in a 2 hour workshop, it is developed over the entire tree's life. And if well cared for, that lifetime is much longer than a single human life.

I have a tree that was first collected in the Sierra in the late 80's. It's had 4 owners so far. The initial "styling" of the tree was by nature. And now, every time it is shown it is different - due to every styling decision, every decision about when to pinch and at what angle to repot, and where it will live in the garden. I hope that that tree will still be here, growing and developing, at the time that I become unable to care for it. And that someone else will then happily assume the role as caretaker.

Indeed, some of us had the opportunity to see a tree in the Japanese Imperial Collection that belonged to Iemitsu, the 3rd Tokugawa shogun. That means that the tree (originally collected from nature) has been living as a bonsai for at least 400 years.

The way I usually explain it to people: Bonsai are like women, there is no substitute for age.

Well Janet there is something about age, but that shouldn't stop us from admiring the saplings. John

Ah yes - callow youth. Full of hope and promise for the future. Beautiful certainly in its own way... :-) -Janet

I don't mistake the beauty of the tree for the beauty in me. If one of my trees places well, then it is the tree that has been judged and not me.

If my tree is judged to be less mertitorious than a just bought specimen, then it is precisely because the tree is being judged and not the owner or artist or me.

If we judged the artist and not the tree then we could truly call this a modern art.

Cheers,
Jim

Remember, that it took a lot of work for the modern artist, for his name to become equivalent with masterpiece. At the beginning, his name meant nothing, so it was his art that was judged. Then, after producing great art for many years, it is his name that counts. It kind of makes sense to me.

This argument seems to be everywhere I look on internet bonsai sites. I personally find it as much a statement of the egos of those on either side of the issue as anything else.

I believe that trees are beautiful, can be artistic, and I marvel at their beauty. But I do have a problem with competitions ( oh, excuse me -"shows").
On the one hand we have those espousing the artistic talents of the "creator" of the bonsai, and what they have achieved. And most attempt to emulate their techniques and processes based on the so-called "rules". And whether or not readily admitted, they do consider themselves "artists".

How many times have we read postings proudly detailing how "well-known-so-and-so " came over and styled my tree, and here's the results - now I just need to trim this a bit, and it will be great"....
Then on the other hand, there are those who purchase a specimen that has been grown, or collected by others, do some additional styling and proclaim it "their" creation?

And in both cases they will display, and take credit for the results in a show.
As with most club activities, bonsai clubs breed competition. But art cannot be judged against the merits of others -
Just how do we judge art? Art, and beauty, is as they say- "in the eye of the beholder". How do we take any endeavor, apply rules, and then call it art? What makes the product of one artist "better" than the next?

If we are judging the handiwork of an individual, and then applying a set of rules arrived at through some historical concensus, and comparing it based on those principals with other work, then we cannot call it "art". At this level it is craft.

If we are to truly believe bonsai is an art form (I think it can be) , then how can we apply rules, and have competitions?



Matt

Matt, thanks for bumping this five year old thread.

Let me ask you this: Have you ever seen an art competition? Because they are not uncommon. Juried shows, contests, and all kinds of head-to-head stuff are pretty common. Did Picasso enter them? Of course not. Do we know who the artists are of that level of skill and genius today? Perhaps a few. But competition is a good thing, as it requires us to move to a whole new level with our trees.

Competition with regards to bonsai is a common thing in Japan. All the famous shows are juried shows.

Yes, I have, and I do understand that competition can be a good thing - within limits.

To me, it is counterproductive to have rules for art. As an example, the commonly held relationship of trunk-height of 6:1. I do understand the effect of near-view vs. far-view and what the attempted perception is, but it has become mantra, and most deviation from this is considered a fault.

Most trees of this girth/height ratio seem so exagerated to me as to be nearly ridiculous, yet it is lauded by all who follow the rules.
I appreciate all forms of trees trained as bonsai, and in most cases my reaction to them is an emotional one - I either like or not, based on my own perceptions. I never find myself looking for "faults" based on some ambiguous rule.

Anyway - should these old threads be left to die? Sorry if I dug up a dead horse (like your metaphors shaken or stirred?) : )

Love this thread, Andy was good to stir things up. I like to be around nice trees, I like to share them. Do I take credit for the work of others by showing them? I try not to, I own a tree (actually I am the caretaker of trees that I hope will end up in the hands of folks who care for them and pass them to the next person on down the line) I display it, there are no cash prizes, just the satisfaction that a tree is appreciated for it's beauty.

Most of the rules that we so strictly adhere to in the west are really just guidelines, some of the most magnificent old bonsai trees have reverse taper, bar branches and too thick branches- you can't let a set of grade school style rules interfere with your appreciation of good trees. it is visceral. The guidelines are there to get folks started, except for bonsai club folks, I never hear folks talking about 6 to 1 ratios, etc. It is more a visual balance and flow issue for most trees.

Just some thoughts
John