Jeff,

Funny, real funny.



An afterthought....

Do you think they judge bonsai at shows for being crafty?



Will

Treebeard: Thank you very much. The summation is pretty much all one can come up with understanding how these things, art and craft, are interwoven. However, because it was asked I will tell you my quick definition of art.

Art is anything of skill or imagination that in whole or in part lacks any ultilitarian purpose. It's sole reason for existance is to entertain, amuse, edify or provide some sort of spiritual or cerimonial purpose, and as an expression of an individuals vision of something or representation of something.

Bob
FWIW I don't want to argue. Serves no point.
In my world this is not a subject that people argue about. Mostly we do something about it.
Be that as it may, Joanie I think that you have it all sewn up. I could not agree with you more.
One of my late mentors once told me "There are those that create and those that discuss the creation. Decide what camp you want to be in" I think he had a good point.
Talk or do. Nothing else matters. The audinece is the ones that will determine how artful it is. Not the dedate. That will go on forever.
And Will
These are my thoughts and opinions. If you disagree with them let me know and I will change them to suit you.

Another attempt to incite, are you sure you don't like to argue?

If only those who produced quality art were allowed (as Ron suggested) to discuss the same, then how could anyone not yet there, but wanting to advance, learn?

For the record, the vast majority of people who support the arts in the world can not produce the same. If not for all those who appreciate art, purchase it, donate to museums, and discuss it, there would be far less art in the world.

To suggest that you have to be an artist to discuss art is the same as saying you have to be a politician to discuss the economy, taxes, public officer's, etc. Or that you need to produce world class students in order to teach.

And another art challenge to go with my others; show five major world class show winning bonsai that were not artistically designed.




Will

I'm not sure I did all that or said all that but if it makes you happy then I am happy. I do know that the "produced quality art thing" is kind of far fetched.
You may twist the words to suit what ever your little heart desires.

Another attempt to incite?



Will

Will, I'm sorry if the word "craft" brings little woven potholders to mind for you. It doesn't for me. So that's the difference.

To me, and others like me (Ron I suspect) craft means being able to do something well. Yes, the guilds you mentioned are gone. But their legacy lives on. People who work in stone, in wood, in pottery, in straw and bone and ivory still make quality work.

Vance, I disagree with you too, regretfully. Utility is not the defining character, for me. A wonderful inlaid floor is utilitarian, and can be as full of art as a painted ceiling done by a master craftsman. The utility can actually augment the art in a good piece. If you say that utility alone is what makes something craft rather than art, then all of the Etruscan urns that hold the ashes of the dead, all of the beautiful tiny scales that the Pompeiian people used to measure their spices, all of the handmade one of a kind teapots made by the potters of Japan are just craft. In fact, using that reasoning, the bonsai pots themselves are craft, because they serve a purpose. King Tut's outer mummy case, with its inlaid gold and gems, is only craft because it held his body.

Silly little knitted booties made by Grandma don't hold a candle to the "textile art" that is available now, incredible work by incredibly gifted artists. Do the silly little knitted booties, simply by existing, nullify the art of the textile artists, who choose to work in wool and cotton and straw and beads? Are dumb little cheesy painted signs that say "Mom is the Best" enough to render the portraiture of the Roman Egyptians into the craft category, which is also just paint on wood? Is the little Paleolithic bone scraper with a horse carved on it "only craft", because they make cheap knives now in Pakistan? There are a thousand more examples, just open your eyes to the world. Art is everywhere, in every corner, when people are given the chance to enrich their environment.

All I'm saying is that art is what catches your breath, art is what transcends. You can't declare it, you can't draw the line, you can't know what posterity will consider worthwhile. You can only do something to the best of your ability, and strive to do better every time. Artist or craftsman, call your work what you will, it is your peers that will judge you and posterity that will either ignore you or hold you in high acclaim.

Joanie

Oh, and as far as molding or one of a kind work......bronzes are always molded. The Horses of San Marco were molded. Many of the Roman bronzes, and Greek bronzes were molded. Sometimes multiples were made, sometimes not. "Salon Art" of the nineteenth century depended upon bronze castings, and if a piece sold well, multiple castings were made. (Indeed, the sculpture was often only a plaster carving that was shown in the Salon, painted with a cold patina. If none were ordered, no bronzes were ever made. Some of these macquettes still exist) Swords, jewelry, and other items from the Bronze Age forward were cast in molds. Molds don't exclude art either.

Joanie

Joanie,

If you carefully read through your post above, you have done a better job than I did, drawing the line between craft and art.

To bring a craft beyound the normal, to create something with "soul", that is what art is. There are a million potters in this country, only a few are artists, many more strive to be. The few who do not create art may very well be content with the craft, however few could honestly say that they wouldn't create art if they could. What first time ash tray maker wouldn't love to create like Sarah or Horst?


Will

And yet another attempt to marginalize discussions of art and artistry.

As I say each and every time, if you don't like what's on, no need to scream at the tube --- just change the channel. It's not as if this thread has a misleading title and you somehow got tricked into reading another one of these art threads.

-Carl