As usual, we still search for the definition of "art". There may be many, depending on the circumstances. Could this be one?
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Art is the process of making beauty from the mundane.
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More of my 2 cents worth.

Mike

For being so tired of the argument, you seem to always be actively involved in it....

Your logic is flawed Ron.

Without art, bonsai would be little more than houseplants. Without art, bonsai would be shown in Arts & Crafts shows, there would be no formal display, and no attempts to capture the artistic qualities in photographs.

Without art, there would be no wiring, no pruning, no shaping, no signature pots, no Tokonoma, no accents, and no custom stands because without an artistic goal, none of these things would matter in the least.

Without art, bonsai most likely never would have caught on at all, the Japanese certainly wouldn't have wasted time on it and I doubt very much if many of us would have been inspired by merely craft. It is the artistic bonsai that made us and still makes us go "wow."

Let's turn this around; Would, could there be bonsai without craft? Yes, of course, craft has very little to do with it.


Will

Sorry made a mistake in typing. I meant to say I was tired of arguing with you. Your pistol is always loaded.

Actually the definition of art was not really the question that I asked. It was in essence what makes one a bonsai artist.
But changing just a couple of words you definition fits pretty good. I would say an artist does that. Even a bonsai artist. )

A very good article Vance, thanks. I particularly liked your summing up.

Regards,

Chris.

Will, I am very sorry, but I disagree with you on a couple of points.

Art and Craft shows strive to higher art just as bonsai shows do. Do you not think that is the case? People who make furniture take beautiful, balanced pictures of it. People who do inlay work, or make tools, or ceramics in general, all consider the balance and inherent qualities of what they are trying to display. Because there is a support system of lovely accessories to bonsai does not make bonsai art. Nor would the lack make bonsai craft. Artistic display and beautiful pictures do not make art. There are stunning coffee table books with pictures of most "crafts", more and more these books are available. Quilts, gems and minerals, animal portraits, all have fabulous books on displays, showing, and photographing. All have wonderful magazines and delighted followers. Go to a big duck decoy convention and tell them that what they do is "craft". They will either laugh at you or get mighty angry. What they do is the same mix....craft is the working knowledge, understanding, and ability to manipulate the raw material.....art is the heart-stopping result in the hands of a few. Then wander around any of their conventions and see how often the self-proclaimed "artists" are really rather ordinary. It isn't how much you trumpet your art, it's how your art strikes others. As I have said before, and I will always say, I would rather have something from the hands of a good craftsman than an incompetent artist. But to me, "craft" is not a derogatory term, nor is it a child of a lesser God. If someone came up and commented favorably on the craftsmanship of something I did, it would be the highest compliment. Perhaps different people have had different exposure to the words, and have given them layers of meaning that are not necessarily the same. And without craft, there would be no bonsai. Sorry. Craft is the ability to work with, understand, and manipulate the raw materials. Craft is what allowed Michaelangelo to carve the stone, but his own soul is what gave his carvings life. He could not have done what he did without learning his craft first. How do you perceive craft??

(This is a friendly and pleasant discussion, please don't think that I am being difficult or angry here, it is just a different point of view.)

Joanie, hoping she didn't really step in it this time.

I'm impressed! It took 30 posts before will and ron started arguing again. Usually these art threads get testy much sooner.

- bob

Bob,

Well, I was out of town for the weekend...



Will

Joanie,

I have nothing against craftsmen (or women) in fact I am often the first to look a piece of work and comment that there is very little craftsmanship left in the world today. Once craftsmen had pride in their work and studied as apprentices for years to be able to call themselves such. But alas, the days of the guilds are long gone, replaced by the very same thing that now makes our silver tarnish. Imagine those days, when silver never tarnished and people took pride in their work, when being called a craftsman really meant something.

But our idea of crafts has changed due largely to the art and craft shows. Potholders, cutting boards, walking puppets, wind chimes, wooden trains and cars, needlepoint, and dollar trinkets fill these shows now mixed with a few scattered actual artists. Yes, we have come to separate craft from art mainly because of quality VS quantity.

Now the artists tend to sway towards Pottery and Glass shows, Art shows, Bonsai shows, and such while the crafters tend to still frequent the craft shows.

This separation started long ago and the debates then were as they are now, craft VS art, art VS craft, artisan VS craftsman, etc. I never started this debate; it was way before our time or our grandparent’s time. But I do know why it was started, the artists needed the separation, the quality need to be defined, a higher standard needed to be set, after all we couldn't have the man in the alley making sculpture out of crap and straw calling himself a craftsman with the man painting the ceiling in the church, surely there is a difference?

So what’s the difference? What defines the line between art and craft?

An artist carves a one of a kind sculpture; a crafter makes a mold of it and pours duplicates of the art. However, if the copy is then hand painted then the craft can very well turn into an art, if the talent shows, if the soul is there. An artist paints a scene that grabs you, touches you, captures you; a crafter copies it (maybe even on velvet). An artist shapes a tree to resemble an idealized tree in nature on a much smaller scale; a crafter grows a tree in a pot.

Personally, I will continue to enter my bonsai in bonsai shows, I’ll leave the craft shows for others. I will continue to style my trees with art, not craft in mind. I will continue to strive for the higher and not be content with the lower.

I see art in accents. I see art in bonsai. I see art in the pots, in the stands, in the scrolls, in the soil particles, in the way the wind whips my Willow and bends my pines. Everywhere I look I see art in bonsai, sometimes I wonder if I am gifted with special sight that enables me to see what others cannot or if I am actually blind to what others see.


Whispers…….. “I see art.”




Will Heath

will,

that's where you were. i thought that it was a little too quiet from your neck of the woods...

jeff