The art vs. craft/hobby discussion reminds me of an old Saturday Night Live routine. Two people are arguing over a product called "Shimmer."

"It's a dessert topping."

"It's a floor wax."

"Dessert topping!"

"Floor wax!"

Then Chevy Chase comes out and says, "No need to argue. New Shimmer is a floor wax *and* a dessert topping!"

1st person says "Tastes great on this butterscotch pudding!"

2nd person says "And look at that shine!"

Bonsai is both an art and a craft. It's whatever the individual makes it to be.

Craig Cowing

Newt: I have seen good collected material destroyed by careless handeling and ruined by ignorance. I have seen good collected material turned into junk because the owner did not have an eye for what was in front of them. They approached the collected tree with the same attitude they approach a nursery tree: "Let's see, I think I want to make this tree a cascade because of this long (albiet ugly) branch sticking out to the side". While at the same time there is this wonderful trunk with all this charactor stareing them in the face, and the branching is there to make a truly magnificent bonsai, they cannot see it or even know to look for it and the beauty within.

Mike I agree with you, especially about the high degree of craftsmanhip but no artistic concept to follow it up. I am hesitant to post this because the person envolved in the story I will relate comes to this forum and I consider him a good friend fine student with tons of potential. In our club show he entered two trees in particular that illustrate the above point. One a Chamychiperis the other a Boxwood. Both of these tree were absolutely emaculately trimed and styled by the book and were of course very beautiful. But there was a problem with both trees.

One was so perfect as to look almost artificial, it was a formal upright with all the branches in the right places, all the foliage pads were maticulously groomed. It was healthy and if anyone is familiar with Chamychiperis species very difficult to get to cooperate to any bonsai training at all let alone at this level. The other, a Boxwood, was cared for in the same carefull manner so much so that it almost look liked a fine topiary. He brought this tree to me after the judging portion of the show was done and asked what he could do to make it a better bonsai.

I told him it was too perfect, it looked so much like the model that it was almost a parody of the same. I told him to loosen it up a bit, don't make the profile so perfect, and open up the front. As soon as we moved one branch aside a bit, exposing more of the interior of the tree it totally changed the charactor of the tree and it became a first rate bonsai, not that it was not a good bonsai to begin with. This tree is a broom style, anothe difficult style to do well. As soon as this person starts designing with his heart and not his mind he is going to make some noises around the bonsai comunity, I guarantee it.

P.S. If he is reading this I hope he is not offended, I really do think he has great potential in the art and I really do applaud his efforts as being way above a lot who have been doing bonsai a lot longer.

Vance, I sometimes say that the difference between art and craft is this. Craft comes from a plan, and art comes from the heart. As in heART

Regards

Mike

Ron, perhaps my memory is faulty, but I thought that according to the Peter Principal one was promoted until they reached their level of incompetence, at which point they were left there (as opposed to being fired). I can't say for sure about the book, but this is how it happens frequently in the real world.
zube

Not sure but that is how I heard it anyway.
Come to think of it what else would do with an incompitent person but get rid of them ;o)

Promote them, of course.

vance,

where does your definition and understanding of "kami" come from? i have a different understanding of what this term means and would like to have some clarification of where it comes from.

i ask this with all due respect.

best,

jeff

Vance please pardon me if I come in on this, but I read Jeff's post and referred to the book "WABI SABI, the Japanese art of impermanance" by Andrew Juniper. This is what it says in the Glossery.
"Kami- The Shinto idea of gods or powers that manifest themselves in the world we perceive that can affect and guide the lives of men.There can be kami in a rock, in a hanging scroll. in a tree, in ancestors, or in the lives of great men".
Reading your post, I believe this is what you were saying when you referred to kami as "spirit". When I read the above definition, I certainly get the feeling that spirit is what is being referred to.
Jeff, what is your concept of kami? I'll bet that we're all on the same track.

Mike
Edit later. I've been looking around for meanings of "kami". One I've found for kami is "divine", which seems to fit with the above. From an unfortunate time in history, the term "kamikaze" means "divine wind".
More edit later. Searching on google I found this:

The Kami of Shinto
In Shinto there are eight million kami, however the number eight was also used to denote many, so lets just say there are lots of them. Every rock, animal, spring, emotion, quality and even person has a kami associated with it. The spirits of the dead are even kami. At some point it would be useful to define exactly what is a kami. There are number of possible answers to this, from the western perspective the easiest answer would be just to call them gods (in the Greek and Roman panthiestic tradition), but I think this mis-represents things. When your father dies his spirit becomes a kami. They quite literally permeate every aspect of Shinto culture.

In my research for the book I have been writting for too many years off and on, I must have read twenty-five different sources dealing with Japanese history and art. It is from a compilation of these different points of view that I presented what I have been able to glean from all the material available to me at the time.

The real conundrum is the fact that the Japanese themselves cannot tell you exactly what Kami is. It is true this word in Western Culture has a negetive conotation in relation to the Kami Kazi planes of WWII. However you have to understand that even that term Kami Kazi went back to the Thirteent-century when a hugy typhoon rose up and destroyed the fleet of Kubli Khan attempting to invade Japan. That is what Kami Kazi means; Devine Wind and it was on that basis that the suicide pilots were called to defend the Japanese homeland against what everyone knew was the inevitable invasion by the Western Powers. Good or evil I will not judge, this post is not about that issue, for me and in this context it simply is.

As I said even the Japanese cannot explane or define in English what Kami is. What it is not is a personality like we might imagine in a possion event like the exorcist. It is more like a divine presence or divine touch one might find in some sacred Icon, or that something special one experiences when viewing something as overwhelming as the Grand Canyon, or Niagra Falls.

The Mona Lisa could be said to have Kami, it is crafted in such a way so that the smile seems to change and the eyes seem to follow you about the room. I think we all have to agree that The Mona Lisa is just a painting and not a living thing but it is one of the worlds great works of art and has been considered so for centuries. The Hope diamond is said to have a curse on it, this too could be said to have a Kami even though the accounts of the curse being manifested have all been debunked.

Can I explain Kami? No, but I think I have some sort of idea what it means in the realm of art. Does this mean I believe such a thing, I believe in a divine presence, I believe in a divine touch, the Cistine Chaple is an example of that. In short it seems that the artist's philosophy tends to manifest itself in his or her artistic expression in some ways that are not easily defined or analyized.

Again this issue always seems to come back on itself without satisfactory resolution. I kind of regret bringing it up out of fear some may misunderstand what is going on here, though the misunderstanding may be more of a purpusful fault finding than an objective decision against or for something. For better or worse the concept of Kami is part of bonsai as practiced in Japan, or any other art or craft for that matter. This is why the Japanese are so good with anything they touch, it is more of a spiritual experience to them, something ingrained in the heart of their culture, it is part of who they are.

I would like to amend this post after re-reading some of the previous questions about Kami. If the Japanese cannot clearly define Kami I would suggest that you take anyone else who claims a definition with the proverbial grain of salt. Defining Kami is right up there with trying to define art and craft. In essence they all may be different manifestations of the same thing, man's ability to rise to an expression of the divine.

Did you ever wonder why the large majority of great artists in the world are men? Today some may say it is because we are all sexists and want to keep women under foot and discourage any acheivement by them. I know some may want to believe that dribble but the fact is men cannot bear children. Men express what they are, other than semen donnars, by works of art, engineering, music, and a host of things too numerous to describe, Women carry on the species and raise the generations, and men become creative in other ways. It is too bad one of the things we do well is make war, but that's another issue not for this post.