Divider22

Art is a product of human imagination, and has nothing to do with the degree of sophistication of its tools. Drawing employs the most rudimentary tools... a piece of graphite and some paper.

One can have the most sophisticated computer graphics hardware and software, and be completely useless without artistic abilities. Making one the condition of the other is just ludicrous.

And by the way, just go go along with you on this dead-end street, some of today's bonsai artists employ rather sophisticated power carving tools, and those tools are getting more and more fancy. Same with bonsai pots: the creation of high quality artistic pots, the glazing process, etc. is much more sophisticated than you would think.

Yes, you can create art with sophisticated tools, but you can also create it using a hammer and a chisel.

When creating bonsai, the only thing that prevents you from creating a work of art is your imagination. Don't blame it on the tools, for heaven's sake...

Take a picture of your tree...I'll call that art...paint a picture of it...if that's good enough I'll call it art too...write a poem...but when you sit to work on that plant...I will never be dumb enough to call that art with the present tools, and I don't forsee a shortage of people who might disagree with me. Anyway I will not check this thread anymore its a decided issue for I.

Any takers?

And for the rest of us, the 20,000 idiots (plus Japan, China and the rest of East Asia) who believe that bonsai is an art form, please don't let someone, like this guy, distract you from pursuing your passion: to capture the beauty of nature within the confines of a little tree. The hundreds of people who see it and get inspired by it might be dumb enough to call it subliminal and exquisite, and may be beautiful.

(except Divider 22 of course, who won't be impressed,... no Sirrey!)

Bonsai has changed in meaning during time. I can't proove it with facts, but I think that the first (meanings of) bonsai are really different things from what we now call bonsai. There are many words now (potensai, mallsai, snobsai, , etc) and also many different "bonsai people" (backyarders, hobbyists, dummies with money, gardeners, artists, etc).

So, we can't talk efficiently before we decide what we are talking about. Sure, some bonsai is an artform, and like every arts it needs:

a) an artist group with authority who declares the bonsai to be a piece of art

b) a maker

c) the actual bonsai which has characters like Mike put above

Divinder 22,

If you happen to check back here again, would you please let me know if you have a relative named Fred?

Thanks,

John

Divinder 22,

I am still waiting for you to respond to the question I asked of you some time ago, which was how would you define art."

As most know, I don't mind a serious debate on any subject but honestly, you have to have a basis for your argument. You keep claiming that bonsai is not art but yet you haven't even laid down a definition of art to base your views on, without which, you have no foundation to build any claims on at all.

Waiting,


Will Heath

That's a scary thought...

Another fantastic article from Vance Wood, I understand that Art appreciation began from Humans beginning to differentiate between something they knew was good and something they knew was bad. For instance, knowing that red apples are ripe to eat and green apples are not so good. This knowledge lead to visual appreciation, aesthetics. With this in mind I think that every conscious decision in Bonsai is Art, however every physical use of Horticulture is craft.
Whilst walking through the woods you spot a good specimen for Bonsai, this is art, aesthetic knowledge. You take out your spade and start to dig, this is craft, horticultural knowledge. You start to prune the roots, craft. You decide which nebari to keep, art. Craft is all about how something is created, Art is all about why something is created. Craft is objective, Art is subjective.

Is the item being perceived something that exceeds the expectations of community or of the individual? In either case who decides whether it is art or craft? The artist? The viewer? The teacher? The seller? The buyer? The critic?

An art student spends many years studying the masters, essentially creating reproductions and variations on the theme, until... maybe someday, they too create... Is that craft or art?

What about the classical musician who reproduces music exactly as it was originally rendered? Is art in the interpretation of the original piece? Hmmmm....

I think where art leaves craft is where an unexpected or original result ocurrs. Othewise, it is a reproduction.

I saw Picasso's 'Erotica' on display in the Montreal Art Museum a few years ago, much of which would be considered vulgar by some. Items on display were clearly the result of an emotional response from within a man. When I see his more famous art otherwise, it envokes an emotional response within me by that man, the artist: a realization that here is something different and original. And when I see the number of iterations of his pieces before he finally rendered them, I realize that the process too can be considered art. Picasso's art was not an accident!

Is not Bonsai training a reproduction of nature? Is it craft or art? Hmmm...

In the meantime, I will embrace the struggle to learn Bonsai, because I want to reproduce nature with my hands, based on my memories acquired over decades of exploring the outdoors.

Thanks Vance. Very heady stuff, as evidenced by the interesting and thought provoking responses to your original posting!

B.

"Is not Bonsai training a reproduction of nature?"

No. It is not. It is man's interpretation of nature--which is much more than simple reproduction.