Art pre-supposes an audience that can understand it...the human cunning to create it and the tools to accomplish it which as I have already stated...do not "cut" it...the first two I will buy...and for final arbitration on what art is you should consult Sister Wendy Beckett....not I.

Divinder22,

A graft is a pretty good example of how tools, albeit simple ones, are used in bonsai to create a good subject. It definitely takes skill and although the tools are "simple" they can also be extremely well-designed for specific purposes.

Do you also view painting as less than an art form? Although I'm no expert in that field, please enlighten me on the sophisticated tools that painters use. Most all of the tools I know they use are fairly simple. Correct me if I'm wrong.

My friend I believe it is un-wise to view "art forms" as requiring high levels of specialized tooling in the process. Maybe I misread your intentions but it sure seems you are stressing that. Tools, yes, but I am unconvinced that subject makes the distinction between art and craft.

Warmest regards,

John

I would put the threshold on painting at about 2200 BCE for sufficient tooling...Hope that helps

How about pottery? Many people use a kick wheel and a wood fired kiln. Simple tools, clay dug from the ground, wood and water and fire. Beautiful, moving, timeless art.

You've sort of dug yourself into a hole, haven't you?

Joanie

And with very primative tools

Divinder, perhaps your view is influenced by your occupation in advanced mechanics? I'm curious.

And is poetry an art, since it requires nothing more than spoken communication? Singing? Dancing? Or is there no such thing as art?

pootsie

Nothing stokes the fires of this forum more than the use of the "A" word.
I found this on google.
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Defining art: what is and what is not
1. requires creative perception both by the artist and by the audience

2. elusive

3. communicates on many levels and is open to many interpretations

4. connotes a sense of ability

5. interplay between the conscious and unconscious part of our being, between what is real and what is an illusion

6. Any human creation which contains an idea other than its utilitarian purpose.
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I posted this recently on another "A" word discussion. I think that in a few words it covers the subject pretty well.

Mike

Dear Pootsie,
Spoken communication is a very sophisticated tool. It uses brain, which is the most sophisticated tool to date.
In bonsai, however, the use of brain is optional.....

Seven years ago a surgeon with a knife finished mangling me...He had the temerity to call hisself an artist...I've spent the better part of the last seven years studying art in all the forms I could find...that are commonly available...I am too logical to caompare bypass surgery with bonsai trees on a one for one basis...but there are similarities that lead me to believe that neither is really an art form yet...Of course painting and writing and singing and movies are art when human cunning is employed....but you can't make a movie without a video camera can you...it does require a minimum amout of gee wizardry to accomplish

Attila, does this mean that bonsai and politics are closely related?

Mike

Sorry about the bungled operation, Divinder, but the rest of what you say makes no sense to me.

Human cunning defines art, but only if it uses the latest technology?

Is dancing an art if it isn't digitally rendered?

pootsie