TB,

to put this straigth I have to mention that I do consider bonsai art and I do consider myself an artist. I wanted to make sure that the art world as described by the gallery owner does not appeal to me and I would rather do without it.

I love to work with my trees just for myself but also to show them to other people. If nobody would look at them it would be OK, but I might do things differently. So honestly I do not really do it all for myself.

I have the great fortune to not have to depend on income form my trees. This makes me more independent than many of my colleagues. Don't forget that they have to make a living. Therefore they have to do something that follows the mainstream taste. Only a fool or a genius would present trees which appear obnoxious to many if one has to make a living with them. This is contrary to the general art world where a REAL artist absolutely has to be obnoxious. We are not that far yet I think.

I wish to add something that I consider bonsai kitsch; but I like it. It is a hibiscus that I grew from a cutting.

best regards
Walter Pall

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Walter, thanks for clearing that up. I appears I may have read more into your statement than was actually there.

Your own status as an artist I do not doubt, I was just thinking that maybe you thought there could be too much emphasis on the art gallery aspect of bonsai, and not enough on the nature aspect.

Regards,

TB

I am awed by your discussion on this subject.

I have nothing to input, but I do have an open question:

How do any/all of you define art?

" " Artist?


Andrew

I think something is art whenever an observer can see the person being expressed in a medium, whether it be words, paint, photography, or trees (or anything else).

I believe you can find art in even most mundane places and the most trivial media.

I also believe that traditional art forms sometimes fail to meet that standard.

In short, whenever I can see or feel the person in the work, I feel it has become "art."

Doug

So, if you can see or feel the person in the work, but the work does not follow the "rules", is it still (Bonsai) art?

OKAY

Getting back to the art in bonsai and the rules ,forgive my simplistic aproach but i thought that we were trying to mimic nature here and the rules are set by nature .Wern't the first ever bonsai natualy stunted tree's ??

Could you say that the more artistic it looks the more natural it looks??


Or the closer it looks to a natural tree the better the artist??

Roboku, this is a thought that I have explored before and come to the conclusion that although there is some truth in it, it is also misleading, to a degree.

Little trees in pots basically have some very significant differences from trees in nature. Take the leaves, for example. If we were imitating nature, the leaves would be tiny. There's not a species out there that would be usable.

I'd say that what we are trying to do with bonsai is evoke the same spirit of wonder that certain (but very far from all) ancient trees give.

It is interesting that it is not just ancient trees that evoke this spirit. If you've ever been up near timberline in the Rockies or Sierra Nevadas, you've probably felt the same spirit from what can only be described as "shrubs" in those place. Aso plants like the odd Joshua Trees in California or other desert plants in other areas.

I think there are numerous clever devices (tricks, if you will) that we use to accomplish this, many of which do not directly imitate nature. How exactly they accomplish creating the same spirit of wonder is hard to determine, but I'm sure we'd all agree, they do. We can learn alot about how the great bonsai artists have created these effects by studying "Bonsai rules".

Best regards, Fred

He answered this for me back in Dec 20, 2001

Hi Bonsainut,

you wrote:
"Andy,
Very entertaining reading, thank you. I think Americans will always be always be rattled by the idea that Euros could out do us at anything! And if you promote this position you will be sound condescending to many."
---------

It is common for members of any culture to be rattled to hear that members of another do something "better" than they do. No big deal. Just human nature (ego). The difference between "sounding" condescending and "being" condescending is distinct, yet few care to recognize the distinction. I'm not responsible for what others infer from my remarks, but it would be impossible for me to be condescending in this matter since I'm an American and not European. Further, I'm merely making an observation of what is perfectly clear.

I do and will promote this position for as long as I can.
---------

you wrote:
"I am interested in what collections you base This opinion on. Sounds like you have been to Italy, maybe Spain and England. Compare them to Pacific Rim, Huntington, National collection, etc."
---------

I'm basing my opinions/observations on no permanent collections (they're static and don't necessarily reflect the ideals of the community), but rather on the results from shows, conventions, non-permanent exhibits, publications and such. This better reflects the concerns of the active enthusiasts.

I've not travelled to Europe. My obervations on the comparative states of approach to bonsai are based on my frequent and ongoing correspondence with the artists and organizations in European countries and in the U.S., the number and quality of publications of bonsai art from Europe and America, the concerns, direction and activities of European and American bonsai organizations, etc... In my capcity of editor and publisher of TBE Journal I have to keep up with this on a daily basis and have many associates and friends who help in this regard.

On the whole, it seems that American bonsai shows and exhibits are put on to show off examples of achievement in tree development and/or technique - with little regard or only tacit regard for artistic concepts. These exhibits are almost never judged - quality is not acknolwedged nor rewarded, on the whole, nor is a lack of quality discouraged. By contrast, it seems that Eropean bonsai shows and exhibits are run in such a manner as to demand excellence, artistic excellence and technical excellence, but unlike their American counterparts, technique is secondary to art (what bonsai is about) and there is a discriminating approach to the evaluation of the exhibit. Many are judged and excellence is recognized and rewarded. This cultivates a culture of excellence and provides incentive for artists to improve and expand the limits of art - within the bonsai concept.

Further, many parts of Europe hold art in much higher regard than we here in the U.S. do. In Europe (and I'm speaking quite generally now) artists are respected, even reveared. In the U.S. artists are characterized as losers or low-lifes who may one day be famous - after they're dead. Fad is important in the U.S. while culture and tradition is important in Europe. The U.S. barely [i:c9a9d81e6b]has[/i:c9a9d81e6b] any culture anyway. There's nothing surprising about the whole thing.

This is the largest part of what I'm referring to when I say that Europe is far ahead of the U.S. in bonsai art.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

He used to make me mad too. Now I'm just amused.

Hello Bonsainut,

Your childish and petty observation aside, what exactly about what I wrote do you find amusing? And how excactly does your observation contribute positively to the discussion?

Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas