If I may boorishly inject the idea of "mental models" back into the discussion:

As Bonsai Artists (ah, yes, even us "Little People" like to so think of ourselves!), there are two things we are constantly at work on: our trees and our mental models. Rules and the like represent the effort of some of us to make our mms conscious and explicit rather than leaving them unconscious and implicit. No doubt, something is always lost in the translation to "conscious and explicit". No doubt, there will always be more to discover and areas that nobody has yet been able to find the words to describe. No doubt, there will always be numerous improvements we make to our mms through observation, imagination and who knows what other mysterious processes go on in those mysterious brains of ours. But, this in no way diminishes the contribution to the art of those who have gone to the trouble to try to explain to the rest of us what they are doing.

Gosh, I have as much hostility to authority as the next guy, but it doesn't seem to me that subjecting oneself to unwelcome authority is what understanding and applying the "rules" is all about. What it is all about is shortcuts to dramatic upgrades of our own bonsai mental models.

And, Andy, when am I EVER going to learn to keep my mouth shut! No matter how helpful you try to make it, telling somebody else what to do on the internet ALWAYS comes off as patronizing. A lesson I apparently needed one more time. Sorry it was at your expense.

Best regards, Fred

I agree that this is where the discussion has been hung up. The rules and conventions are a tool of the student of bonsai, but are laid aside by those who have become bonsai artists. The artist moves within the conventions of his or her discipline like a fish moves in water, and verbally formulating those rules and conventions is useful not for making bonsai, but for expressing to others how those conventions are practically applied.

'Breaking the rules' in this context becomes rather a silly idea, from the perspective of someone who creates outside a formalized system, but within the conventions of his or her art. I realize that this is part of what you were trying to tell Earl. To the student, the rules are a discipline to be mastered. To the artist, they are pale imitations and oversimplifications of principles that inform the actions when creating art.

Ha! I finally feel like we're getting somewhere...

Salix,

Well put. Clear and to the point. I agree. After a while you must unlearn the "rules", so to speak.

My 2¢: I need to say this.

Original questions:

Does the viewer have to be educated in art to view bonsai properly?
I don't think so. Most people are mystified the first time they see a bonsai. They either love them or they don't. They are not usually in between those 2 extreems.

Does a person with an art degree become an artist automaticly?
I don't think so. I know individuals with Art degrees that I don't think or feel are very good artists.

Does having an art degree make you a better artist than someone that doesn't have an art background?

I don't think so. Fact, I know individuals with Art degrees that I don't think or feel are very good artists.

I'd like to say this about bonsai from different countries.

Bonsai, outside of Japan and China is in it's infancy. I have been enjoying bonsai for going on 27 years in the USA. The USA has it's own sensitivities that are different from the European countries, Japan, and the rest of the world. I think we see things, bonsai included, differently.

Most experienced bonsai people can distingish a Japanese bonsai from an American or European bonsai.

I like the fact that our cultures and the way we perceive sensual data is different.

One thing we all have in common, no matter what country we come from, is that we enjoy planting trees and shrubs in pots and doing it the best we can. Some may "choose and think" of themselves as artists while others plain don't care. It really doesn't make any difference to me so long as they don't insult my integrity as a human being being free to think and do as he sees fit. I don't enjoy being called ignorant, and I can't think of anyone at the moment who I know who does.

Some choose to make money from bonsai.
Some choose to speculate as to whether or not bonsai is art or craft or some other word with another meaning.
Some choose to write about bonsai. Some choose to judge bonsai. It goes on and on and on.

Some choose to create. They are the artists in my opinion as humble or as great as they may be. I speak only for myself.

Andy,

I still think the way you express some of your opinions are rude. I really don't think you are capable of seeing your rudeness yet. It seems as though you think you know more about most things than anyone else.

I was once told that if one person tells me I have a tail, I shouldn't listen to them, but if ten people tell me I have a tail it might be time to at least have look and see.

There is another reason the rules are useful and this is a topic that hasn't come up yet: teaching.

Rules, such as the ones we have been discussing are an excellent way to introduce someone to the art and the best teachers are able to explain why the rules apply (or don't) in a particular case.

Otherwise, bonsai is passed down by saying "OK, work with these trees for 20 years and hopefully art will emerge."

I think in that sense, the rules are a useful way to pass on the basics of instruction.

In that sense, I think they have a practical use outside of the discussion of art as well.

Doug

WOW, What a difference a day makes.

OK, Now were gettin somewhere.

Since I started this thread with a few ulterior motives in mind, I will direct this at Andy, since Andy and I go way back at disscussion of art on this forum. ( I knew I could jazz up the forum by pressin the right buttons)

Since your passion for the art of bonsai is very deep and your point is expressed with much enthusiasam, What do you base your concieved notions of European art versus USA art. While I agree I have seen some very nice pieces from the European Bonsai Community, I have also seen some very nice American Bonsai.

Is the failure of American Bonsai in the display of bonsai, or the craft? (craft, meaning execution or technique)

What has to be done better in the future to improve in this art form?

Is teaching the answer?

Is listening the answer?

(see how I bait him, this is an art in itself)

Will we reach that goal?

Does USA have a goal, and does it care?

Waiting patiently, Bonsai-al

Wow, I have to say I have never felt that American bonsai suffered in comparison with any other country (with the exception of Japan).

Perhaps that is because even our small local club shows in Southern California are loaded with trees from exceptional artists (My first club show had trees from John Naka, Ben Oki, Mas Ishii, Roy Nagatoshi, Harry Hirao and Ted Matson). It is pretty typical for them (and many others) to contribute something to most of the LA club's shows. That may be changing now as many of them get older.

Plenty of artistry in those trees.

Then again, I've never seen a European bonsai show. Maybe the quality level is higher. So am I just spoiled or missing something?

Doug

Hi Doug, I'm sure we have brushed arms a time or two. I usually hit every major show in Ca. I used to be pretty vocal on the the bonsaiweb too.

First off if you compare the type of shows going on in Europe and what goes on here, there is no comparison. Take a look at some past threads on the IBC of the two most recent shows from Europe. One posted by Walter, and one posted by Wolfgang I think. These shows showed tokonoma after tokonoma for the display of the trees. They were shown with stones accent plants, scrolls, most were three point displays, and the lighting is great.

I went to the 45th anniversary of the CBS (Ca. Bonsai Society) and was shocked at the way the trees were presented. They were displayed in front of huge open, uncovered windows. It was hard to see the trees due to the light, besides being distracted by passing autos, and passerbys looking back at you while one gazed at the trees.

While we do a reasonable effort at creating nice trees, they are far from artistic. For me anyway I like finely groomed, and finely wired bonsai branches. If you aren't useing wire a little larger that a thread, then you aren't wiring every branch. Check out some of the trees I will post and look for the lack of detail in wiring the trees. These are some of the trees from the heavy hitters in LA.

Anyway... I will show three that miss the mark, and one that is a gallant effort to bring some cohesion to the term "art'.

The first one is from CBS Show 2002, artist Mel Ikeda.

How distracting is that car back there?

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Thanks, Salix, for your support when you said: "You gave Earl's statement rather short shrift, I thought, and you presented very little to correct or contradict what he had to say. You relied on words like "wrong," "stupid," and the old standby for sloppy argument on forums, "ignorant," rather than on the merit of Earl's ideas. In fact, Earl was touching on the central question of this thread in a real way, and his ideas were more debatable than they were "wrong."

Andy, I do think that if you really read my remarks with an open mind, you would find I was in many ways agreeing with you. And while I believe you have a right to your opinion, I certainly don't believe that what you say is "fact." Like it or not, those comments you made were equally opinion, just as mine were. I'm glad you have joined into this forum. I do hope you will participate as an equal member and not get too condescending with those with whom you disagree. I really don't want this forum to become one of "the experts" and everybody else. Let's leave that to other forums.

Andy, you said, "This is because the "rules" of art are not arbitrary dogma that a comittee in a smoke filled back room set to paper one day. Rather, they are simply the useful conventions that allow someone using a certain medium to convey meaning. "

Thanks. I think that is exactly what I was trying to say in discussing the painters use of techniques and methods. You just said it better.

Earl

One would think by now that an organization as large as the CBS would have centralized the display, and have suitable backdrops for all the trees. I could understand one or two in the lobby to let folks know there is a bonsai thing going on there. But they had the major portion of the show in the lobby of the Hotel.

This one, CBS 2002, artist Bill Hutchinson.
How distracting is that parking lot full of cars, and that concrete what-sa-ma-callit.

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Or how about this gem from the GSBF Convention in 1994, Anahiem, artist unknown. I love the ladder! I would think somone would get that out of the hallway, looks like a hazard anyway!

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