Gosh, there are some great things being said on this thread! I loved Walter's little story. It really captured, for me, the difference between art and art appreciation. An interesting phenomenon going on currently is the reassessment of the work of painter Norman Rockwell. Back 40 years ago when he was alive and painting actively, no work was more derided or ridiculed than his. NOBODY who pretended to "Art Appreciation Credentials" had a single good word to say about him. Today, his work is looked on as really very good. The price of his paintings has really shot up and it is now respectable in Art Appreciation circles to say good things about him.

My, "what fools we mortals be".

Andy, I really liked your comments. Drawing the distinction between people who want to develop personal collections for their own enjoyment and real "Bonsai Artists" is not only valid but important. The "little people" in our art have quite distinct requirements compared to artists who wish to compete at the highest levels and advance the state of the art. These sets of bonsaists should not be at odds, but existing as harmonious, mutually supportive groups within our community. Both groups should respect and feel gratitude for the other. The accomplishments of a Walter Pall or the many great Japanese artists loose a great deal of their significance without the admiration, love and respect of the great mass of bonsai plodders, like myself. At the same time, my humble efforts are greatly improved and given significance and dignity by being bonsai, maybe not of the quality of Walter's, but bonsai nonetheless.

Thanks, everybody. Fred

At some level, bonsai is a representational art form. Accordingly, there are conventions about what makes a bonsai a good approximation of a tree in nature (or a bad one). There are also some rules which serve more practical purposes (e.g. cutting bar branches not only makes a tree look better, but prevents forming a large area from forming in the middle of the trunk).

These conventions establish a standard which people more or less conform too.

Now, that said. I am all for "breaking" the rules. That is very different from disregarding them or being unaware of them. The times when breaking the rules is appropriate is when the tree demands it. And when the tree demands it and you recognize it, then you are on your way to creating art.

People often forget that the great artists of our time could draw and paint perfectly. It is only once you master the rules that you can step beyond them in any meaningful way.

Art is not only expression, but communication. It doesn't happen in a vacuum.

All that said, the most artistic and beautiful style to me has always been Bunjin, for many of the reasons outlined aobve.

Doug

Doug wrote:
"Art is not only expression, but communication. It doesn't happen in a vacuum."
-------------------

Exactly. And the "rules" (useful guidelines and conventions for communicating your aims) are the basics of "language" for this communication. They are not, however, the fullness of this communication. While Doug writes that "it doesn't happen in a vaccum." applies to the communication beteen the work and the viewer (or perhaps the artist and the viewer), it also applies to the communication between the various elements that make up the work.

For instance, the "rule" of having your branches emerge from the trunk on the outside of curves is not the fullness of what is necessary to create a coherent, beautiful composition. This guideline does not exist in a vaccum. In order to approach the fullness of the "real" principle, that branch must have a character that is consistent with the size of the trunk, the movement of the trunk, the character of the trunk, etc... It must also have a character that is appropriate for its location on the tree, etc...

These fundamentals (rules) are just the very surface principles. It is up to your further work that makes them applicable in the context of quality work.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

As I read and re-read this thread, I am finally seeing the big picture as it is painted in broad strokes, and a few detailing little ones. And I see where I fit into the picture of us and them.

I belong to the Trailer Trash Bonsai Club, yehaw!!! Hail to the Chief.

I often wondered why I was always treated differently at the IBC gallery.

If there are prejudices, one must only visit the different forums to find out where it is. It is between those that "think" they are great artists and those that are trying to find their way into the art. As I have been around these forums for a couple years now, I am seeing everyone becoming unveiled. Should we have to re-introduce ourselves

Hi I am Paul, I am Arti'st. (say it like arteest). Poo on you if you are not and Arti'st.

Do I have to be an artist to gain acceptance as a bonsai enthusiast?? Please.... I have many friends that have beautiful collections (that they did not buy finished) that are exhibition quality. They choose not to partake in the exhibitions, because more often than not, a west coast master has styled other people trees for them. Yes it does happen. Money is a determining factor, sure, if ya can hire an artist, your an artist.
And no, I am not saying everyone does this. A very few people, can ruin it for us little folk too.

I do know there are wonderful artists, and I admire their work. One must not wonder who I am talking about above. They know who they are.

Whether you are a hobbyist or an "Arti'st" doesnt matter. I dont look at you differently. I simply want to create very good and healthy bonsai. Please dont look at me differently. It is all art to me. Hey I know when I am dead. My stuff will be sold. (at an estate sale) but hey, it will be sold!!




Paul

Paul,

You have completely missed the point of all of these discussions if you believe what you wrote.

The only reason that there is such an empassioned discussion about art and non art and quality art and poor art and artistry and gardening is because some who do not understand art have claimed that art has no "useful guidelines" and have made statements that work to blur the line between levels of quality.

If you think that this is about some how think that they are "arteests" pounding on those who are beneath them, you have not read the words and are simply equating discussions about quality discrimination with class warfare.

This ain't about "us and them," rather it's about art. This is not about our relative levels of artistic ability, it IS about mischaracterizations about art from those who are not very familiar with its principles.

Don't get your shorts in a knot about something that is not being put forth.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutlege
zone 8, Texas

For me, there is not much difference between the two. Without the "art" a tree in a pot is just a tree in a pot.

I have nothing against people who want to stick trees in pots and trim them and enjoy them. But the minute you call it Bonsai, you are identifying it as part of a community and that community has a general vision of what constitutes "good" and "bad" style.

This is no different than any other community.

It is a bit like a person who calls themselves a novelist and when you ask them what they have published they say "Well, I haven't actually published anything yet."

Bonsai, for me, is like all art, a way of exploring the tensions inherent in our nature. Betweem the nature of the tree and the artifice of the pot, between the constraints of the rules and the freedom of expression. It is the play of freedom and constraint as expressed in our mastery over and harmony with nature.

Bonsai is, in so many ways, an art of contradiction. Its very defintion, for me, implies art.

If that is a prejudice, so be it. But I find nothing noble about ignorance and as I said before there is a big difference between breaking the rules and never bothering to learn them in the first place.


To answer your question: "Do I have to be an artist to gain acceptance as a bonsai enthusiast??"

I think the answer is yes. You just don't have to be a good one.

I hate to break it to you, but when you say: "I simply want to create very good and healthy bonsai." You have already commited yourself. In this case "good" is an aesthetic judgment. Unless you are saying that all bonsai are equally good, which is a very hard position to defend.

So, once we have judgement, we inevitably have art (or at least aesthetics)

Once you start onthe road to create a "good" tree, you are already an artist. Now the question becomes good according to whom? And that is a stickier problem.

Doug

Right on Andy! The original point yes, it is nothing about the original point. I was reading thru some of the threads

Missed my coffee this morning. I am trying to understand what is going on but we are bouncing from subject to subject. I have heard the arguement on rules/guidelines and started my share of arguements as a newbie rebel.

I can now see in my own bonsai, why it is important for these guidelines. When I first started to understand, and put to practice, my bench began a transformation. I saw some chosen stock differently and put them in the garden.

My push on this now is the heavy attitude or lean on the art rules, and artistry. Granted I know nothing of art, but I enjoy the hell out of it.

I see now, I should not get into this if I know little about it.

Maybe my thinking is this.....

art

you can be born with it
you can learn it
you can buy it


Paul

Andy,

It would be appreciated (by me, at least) if you could tone down your condescending, self-congratulatory rhetoric and actually participate in the discussion rather than trying to dominate it. You're not listening to anyone else, you're just insulting those with differing views and then talking over them. You have no monopoly on the truth, and everyone on here has an equal right to express their opinions. If you can't find a way to correct someone's factual misconceptions without calling them ignorant, you're not trying hard enough. I appreciate what you've had to say on this topic, but I appreciate what other people have had to say, too. I would rather have people feel comfortable about expressing themselves than to have them feel like they were risking being slapped down. The basis of dialog is mutual trust and respect.

IRT the topic itself:

I feel that following the rules completely and unquestioningly can result in 'perfect' trees that are created as a result of Craft, but that the ability to question, modify, or discard those rules and still produce a great tree is the basis for bonsai as Art.

Rules are the basis of skill, but skill without talent is Craft, not Art. Art is a synthesis of skill and talent. Talent is the aspect of Art that can not be taught.


American bonsai is still in its infancy, and that is why its status is lower than for other regions or the world. We are unwilling to accept the rules unconditionally, but we have not yet defined our own set of rules. Once some skilled folks step up and formulate what American bonsai is, it will win respect, or at least recognition. We can't demand recognition from others for something that we, ourselves, have yet to define.

Great discussion, everyone, keep it coming!

-Dan.

Dan said: "American bonsai is still in its infancy, and that is why its status is lower than for other regions or the world"

Dan,

you may not be fully aware of recent bonsai history in the western world.
I can only speak about Europe here.

While there was somehting that could be called bonsai trend in Great Britain already at around 1960 it took until the beginnig of the eighties to have something similar in Germany. In other countries it came even later.

As to the artistic side: up to the late eighties Great Britain was leading the bonsai world in Europe by far. Around the end of the eighties Germay cought up a lot. Italy was not on the bonsai map really!!! Belgium and the Netherlands became very strong. Around the mid nineties Italy started with a phantastic rise out of nothing. Spain was on the map with very good results all of a sudden. Sorry for leaving out some nations.

So to be accepted as a nation of bonsai artists has very littel to do with the time that was available. If the time span of doing it were important clearly America must be the leading nation in the west, followed by Great Britain. This is simply not the case at all.

So American bonsai is not in it's infancy at all compared to other countries timewise. But I agree that one could argue that it is art-wise in some respects.

Enough to make new enemies?

Walter Pall

Dan,

You wrote:
"You have no monopoly on the truth, and everyone on here has an equal right to express their opinions. If you can't find a way to correct someone's factual misconceptions without calling them ignorant, you're not trying hard enough."
-----------------

Yes, everyone has a right to express their opinions, but I'm not taking issue with opinions. I'm taking issue with incorrect statments that are presented as fact. Note the difference.

When I cite ignorance on the part of another poster, it is because they are in fact ignorant about the issue they are then discussing. Citing ignorance is not an insult as you mistakenly believe. Ignorance is simply a lack of sufficient knowledge about a subject. We all have ignorance about many things.

If I were to say that aerodynamics has nothing to do with automobile design, it would be ignorance. Someone who knows that aerodynamics has much to do with automobile design should rightly come along and correct my false statements. What about this don't you get?
----------------

You wrote:
"I appreciate what you've had to say on this topic, but I appreciate what other people have had to say, too. I would rather have people feel comfortable about expressing themselves than to have them feel like they were risking being slapped down. The basis of dialog is mutual trust and respect."
-----------------

Fine. Now why should I not rather people know what they're talking about when they present information as fact? Don't you have a problem with the dissemination of false information? There is a difference between correction and oppression. I'll ask you not to accuse me of one when I'm simply engaging in the other, thank you.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas