Marsha,

You said it correctly, I was trying to verbalize what you said so elegantly. Rules are made only by people or governments wanting to control the masses for one reason or another... Thanks

Wow, I just found this and have enjoyed everyone's posts.

Let me put a finer point on my characterization of this topic. First, I agree with many that the word, "rules," is both agitating and inappropriate.

ARTISTIC RULES = useful conventions and configurations of the elements of the medum used in art/craft, which assist us in conveying meaning and beauty.

The "rules" don't make the art. They simply provide a simple meas for us to get near the configuration that people can understand as beautiful and meaningful. It is up to the artist to make art based on these useful conventions - or by augmenting or disregarding some of them (sometimes, even hinting at them, but not using them blatantly).

Someone asked, "Who makes the rules?" and the answer is that the laws of human perception do - the way that humans interpret beauty and meaning from how the elements of a work are composed. For instance, in a landscape painting, if the tops of the trees in the foreground are even with the horizon or the tops of the hills in the background, it is disturbing to the viewer, distracting; not artistic. With the same elements simply arranged better, more artistically, the work is far more "beautiful" to the viewer.

Someone else asked why Americans' work and approach to bonsai is so often criticized - why we seem to take such a nonchalant approach to this. My take is that inaddition to the things I've said before on this subject (much!), it is exacerbated by the fact that in our judged shows, it is not the bonsai that are categorized and evaluated. Rather it is WE who are categorized and evaluated. This is all rather insulting. Our show categories are as follows: Professional, Advanced, Novice, etc... This is absurd and has nothing to do with evaluating the art and beauty of bonsai! The only categories should be : Conifer, Deciduous, Fruiting/Flowering, Large, Medium, Small, etc...

I'm glad to see that more of us are discussing this important issue and I hope that positive things come of it.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

Oh what fun it is to sing a sleighing song tonite....jingle bells jingle bells...

Do you think maybe the "rules" were made so that persons can look at anothers bonsai and say, see that bonsai, its crap, because the rules say it is. (But in reality, I may not be able to tell you why I dont like it) Do we need an excuse to not like someone elses creative juices? In New York city, an artist threw elephant dung onto the canvas of a painting of Mary, mother of Jesus in the name of his art.....dont know bout them rules either.

Gary, you sleigh (slay) me. Thanks for the French lesson!!

To everyone, my answer to

Thing is, do they move one the same?

I am moved daily by many of the trees I see here and other forums. Novice or better. I am moved by personal attempts to create and strive to learn. I am also proud of those that actually create something they feel confident enough to exhibit. That in itself moves me.

The artist does have a responsibility to viewers of the art. Our responsibility is to show that the artform is not limited. And that with everything else, let it evolve as it gains momentum, without losing its history.


Paul

Maybe it would help to put this in black and white--knowing that truth always blurs absolutes: There are no "artistic" rules. As soon as anyone changes an artistic impression or expression into a rule it is no longer art but imitation. If we are talking about art, we shouldn't be talking about rules at all, we should be talking about what it is in a particular tree that moves us, speaks to our heart or takes us on an inward journey.

It is precisely the imposition of rules that many people use to ridicule every new form of art and try to impose to keep things the same way that they have always been.

Rules are part of the "craft". This is in no way negative. We need the rules to learn the craft. A painter must know how to apply paint to canvas, how to hold the brush, how to make certain brush strokes, how to create certain results. But art goes beyond this and happens when the object (tree in our case) speaks to us.

Al, I don't quite know how to speak to your comment about Europeans. I guess I think that whole way of looking at art is pure prejudice. There are probably some people in all countries that think they are better than others, but I wouldn't give that type of thinking the time of day. The same is true with Japan--japanese bonsai isn't "better" than any other country's, it is simply more refined in a Japanese way. So I just don't think that is relevant. I certainly don't think Walter's bonsai is great because he is European! I think they are great because he is a true artist that has gone beyond technique and craft and moved into the artistic realm.

Finally, there will never be more than a relatively few bonsai master artists. I know I am not original enough, nor do I have the dedication or time or creativity to truly become more than an amatuer artist. That's a fact and it doesn't at all take away from love of and enjoyment of creating bonsai.

Earl

ROBUKU said:

I think a new thread should be started with the title


ART OR CRAP

people can post trees and take it to a vote ??



No, No, No! Art can never be taken to a vote. Majority does not rule.

Furthermore, I doubt that art can ever be appreciated on a small low resolution monitor in two dimensions. A real Monet cannot be appreciated on a TV screen.

Earl

To echo BonsaiAl's original post, I think that the line between Art and Craft in bonsai is hard to determine but I'm going to try to show where my 'line' is. For me, the rules of bonsai are guidelines that can be applied to any tree, regardless of species. Some rules apply more to certain types of tree, or to specific species, so you can pick and choose those rules. I think you cross the line into Art when you look at an individual tree after thinking about the rules and ask "What style of tree will you be?" and "How will I try to show your beauty as best I can?". Seeing how someone has applied those rules to an individual tree and then gone beyond them to allow the tree to speak for itself is to see the art in a tree. Better yet to see a tree and "Wow!" it's so lovely that you don't care how it was done! There will be evidence of the rules in there if you look closely but the artist has created a vision which goes beyond a technical exercise. If anyone has seen any of Tony Tickle's trees - he's a UK bonsai artist - he uses the rules to create 'scale' in a tree, ie if the proportions are right the tree will look more like a tree in nature. Talent goes beyond a single benchmark but it's a good one to keep in mind.
Just my two penn'orth,
regards
Janice

EARL said:

No, No, No! Art can never be taken to a vote. Majority does not rule.





Well how about a fo bonsai art auction

To see what people would pay for a arty tree



ROBOKU

Roboku,

It's interesting that you would say this. Maybe you think that it is a joke.

At a publik penal dicussion in Dusseldorf, Germany last year we have discusssed the subject 'bonsai, is it art?'. A gallery owner (for paintings) was on the panel. At one point he said: 'The final test of art is with the wallet. Whatever gets the higher price is the better art'.

He also said 'Everything that an artist makes is art. The same thing by some nobody is not art. If Kimura makes a tree and Joe Somebody makes exacly the same tree, the first is art and the second is not art, even if it is genuine work and not a copy'.

He also said: 'Who decides whether someone is an artist? It is an in-goup of gallery owners, museum people, arts magazine publishers and editors, judges of art exhibits, soetimes even peers. It is by no means the general public. The opinion of the general public is a contra indicator.'

Intersting views arn't they? While he admitted that this may sound somewhat cynical he inssited that this is what the art world is all about.

While he regarded me a a ral artist, I mentioned that I would rather stick with bonsai and not know much about this other world.

best regards
Walter Pall

Hi Earl,

You wrote:
"Maybe it would help to put this in black and white--knowing that truth always blurs absolutes: There are no "artistic" rules. As soon as anyone changes an artistic impression or expression into a rule it is no longer art but imitation. If we are talking about art, we shouldn't be talking about rules at all, we should be talking about what it is in a particular tree that moves us, speaks to our heart or takes us on an inward journey."
----------------

I hate to single out an individual's ideas for correction, but this is simply wrong. It is clear that you have not studied art to any great degree. While there is nothing at all wrong with that, it also means that you are ill equipped to discuss artistic rules. The rules of art do exist and are important to the creation of all art in any medium.

BTW, "rules" is a poor label. As has been discussed in another thread, these "rules" are simply the useful conventions and configurations that allow an artist to more easily communicate and connect with the viewer.

I feel the need to correct your statements because they are harmful to those who may believe you. If one is going to be serious about trying to creat art, it is important to first learn what the useful conventions of artistic communication are so that one may use them in composing one's works.

I also believe that you have mischaracterized Al's statements about the Europeans. He never said that they were better people than anyone else, he simply mentioned that their lives are more closely tied to art in an everyday manner than are ours here in the States. He's right. This is not a judgment of the quality of the people. Your words sound a bit defensive and I wonder that you inferred this mischaracterization.

Further, your statement about Japanese bonsai not being better than any other country's bonsai was naive. It is clear to just about anyone who cares to look that Japanese bonsai, as a whole, is far better than that of any other place on earth, save perhaps China and Taiwan (small pockets). You choice to impose some sort of artistic equivilency on the bonsai of all cultures shows a disconnect with reality and is damaging to the concept of quality and discrimination. There is such a thing as good work and work that is lacking of quality. It serves no one to try and say otherwise.

Japanese bonsai are not better because they are made by Japanese people. The broad example of Japanese bonsai is of higher quality because there is an abundance of quality material and an abundance of growers and artists that have learned the concepts of quality for bonsai and work first to imbue their trees with the foundational elements of bonsai quality - a foundation that artists can bulid upon to express art more easily, more effectively and more strongly because of the basics that have formed much of ther material. The artists there ain't half bad either.

As has been said many times before (and it is stupid that it needs to be said at all), there is nothing wrong with pursuing bonsai as a simple, enjoyable pasttime without concern for artistry. Those who do this, however, need not feel the need to impose their ideals upon and criticize those who work to create art with bonsai and recognize the distinctions between high quality and poor quality work.

Commenting on, characterizing and dissecting art, while presenting information as "fact," would also require that those so engaged also have studied art and have a firm grasp of it. Making patently false statments based on ignorance is no way to contribute positively to a discussion and harms those who may believe these words. Surely those who are not well acquainted with the intricacies of art can contribute to bonsai discussions in other ways, while not putting forth vaccuous information for the uninitiated to accept as fact. I hope that we can agree that it is good to work to avoid that situation.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

Hi all, I saw this thread earlier but did not have the proper time to read it all or digest the posts. Now that I have, I hope you will not mind if I put in my 2 cents worth.

First, I find it interesting that this thread has managed to attract most of the more advanced to professional types that come to this board. (NOTE: I do not include myself in this group).

To my thinking, Art and Artist are not linked. Let me explain. I feel that I am progressing in my ability and will at some point be worthy of being an artist. My work (trees) are progressing and may or may not ever be ART. The ability of any individual to produce anything to the level of ART is partial based on their training, their work ethic and their inborn ability. I can train and learn and practice as much as anyone, but my inborn ability can only be stretched so far.

As for the 'rules', they are helping me see things clearly. I will not necessarily follow them to the 'T' but use them to help me. As a guide or crutch that is always there!

I do not feel that a tree styled by a famous Bonsai Artist is necessarily ART. It may be some day, or not! A tree styled by an unknown newbie with little training can be ART (or not).

My simple explanation is..... If I see a tree, it catches my eye, I enjoy it, it isn't art. If that tree moves me and reminds me of a mental image of a tree, it is ART. Notice I said 'my explanation', yours might be different. Art to me is Personal. I have seen many things in museums and art galleries that are there because they are 'ART', I do not like them and do not appreciate them, to me, they ain't ART!