What are we looking for? One learns a craft and with experience, talent and luck becomes an artist.

What distinguishes a Picasso from a Monet?

Which bonsai turn me on? The ones that I enjoy. The ones that facinate me. The ones that get my attention and affect me emotionally.

If we are not all artists of some degree, than what are we lacking? Another head to put on our own to tell us what to really do with our creations?

Our creations are what they should be at any given time. What are we to chase after? Someone elses ideas or feelings?

Excuse my French here. To the artist, art is like shitting, pissing, eating and sleeping as needed.
That's all one needs to know. The rest is a secret. Don't be decieved! The rules are there- don't worry about the rules. The rules aren't worried about you.

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Fred, you were doing soo good until that...

I have this so called "indifference" to the rules. I do my own thing. My trees don't look like freak show exhibits (I hope).
I can communicate with others in the bonsai world, and trade styling suggestions. Friends and family enjoy me trees.

Splinter summed up my viewpoint:



Walter, your "impressive natural trees" mental model works for me. I have done, (and still do) 'canned tree' copies, and I get great enjoyment from that. But always there is the thought that I'm only copying other bonsai, not creating one of my own.


I would like to quote Peter Adams, from 5/2002 issue of bonsai europe:

Do first look at adult trees in nature rather than styling according to the latest bonsai fad. Or worse, by falling back on those ludicrous 'rules' of styling disposition, which are the bonsai equivalent of painting by numbers.

Regards,

TB

TreeBay, I about fell out of my chair laughing at the picture you sent.

Walter, you mentioned three mental models and only talked about two. If there was a third, I'd love to hear about it.

I have to admit to being closer to the first model you proposed than the second. Shameful, I guess, but the truth is the truth! It has always seemed to me that the purpose of bonsai is to evoke the spirit of ancient trees, but the actual "technology" and even result were quite different from actual trees in the wild. Learning how that effect is created by a small tree in a pot is what the "rules" (I am coming to HATE that word!) are all about.

I will concede without a moment's hesitation that there have been good bonsai produced by people who profess an indifference to Bonsai rules. IMHO, these people apply those rules to an extent they do not recognize. Mental models may be conscious and explicit or unconscious and implicit. If they are the later, it doesn't mean they don't exist. It just means that their owners are unable to articulate them. It also may be that powerful and effective mental models are articulated poorly or inadequately generalized. However, just the effort to articulate them is valuable and productive and leads to advances in the "state of the art". I think the effort to articulate "the rules" is one of the most valuable contributions ever made to our community and feel a deep sense of gratitude for their availability.

And, please Walter, please go easy on this humble newbie. I am stating my disagreement with you in the spirit of wanting to learn more, not in the spirit of contention!

Best regards, Fred

Excuse me for intruding on this thread, but I have found some things in this discussion about the Art of Bonsai that causes me to want to put in my two cents worth (and that is about all it is worth). First my qualifcations to speak to this subject, I started doing bonsai in 1972, since I owned a nursery landscaping company in the midwest and winters kept you in the greenhouse with little to do. I have studied bonsai principles, books of all types and kinds. Since moving to California in 1984 my collection has grown conciderably, as well as my knowledge all aspects of bonsai. Personally, I like the Chinese form of Pen Jing more than the tightly structured Japanese form.

Getting to my point of even adding to this thread. I have one question regarding rules, and that is who makes the rules?? what rules, unless referring to the structuring principles, of which I can understand, but they are really not rules, but more guides on how to perform the art. If artists followed rules, there would be a very boring art world. They must follow certain principles of design and composure and construction and the like, but there are no rules../

Bonsai to me over the years has been an excellent therapy and means of relaxation, one that draws me closer to nature and to honor mother nature by bringing an understanding of her creations to others by creating a minature version so all can enjoy and understand.

Gene S

Maiban, welcome.

I'm sure you know this, but... As I understand it the rules for styling were 'formalised' by Yoshimura & Halford in 1957. They laid down a series of design concepts which have been commandeered by westerners and treated as the be-all and end-all of bonsai.

For me, you hit the nail bang on the head with "they are really not rules, but more guides on how to perform the art".

Regards,

TB

Yes, but as Andy pointed out on his thread reply at IBC, there are two sets of rules. There are craft rules and artistic rules. So.. I guess one could do a bonsai and have it turn out well in either case. One would be Icon stature and one would be very good craft.

Thing is, do they move one the same?

The question is, what are these art rules, and how do they apply to bonsai?

TB

Bonsai and Penjing have been past down through the generations, using stlying and design principles and techniques. These were more guidelines than "rules".

I think I get your idea about the "end all be all" regarding westerners. These probably are laughed at in Japan, China and the rest of Asia. Of course there are a number of Bonsai masters from Japan that have written excellent books on the subject. Each Masters book have somewhat different outlooks and styling techniques than the other. So the idea of rules as such are only self imposed, imo. The art idea comes into play by using proper composition, balance and continuity. Someone said it better before but art is in the eye of the beholder. It should cause emotional interaction and a joy over viewing it. Not every one has the same ideas of what good art is.

Gene S "Maiban"

Maiban and TB,
I agree! I think when the general guidelines on bonsai design traveled from East to West, westerners created their own concept of the teachings, and the "rules" came to life. As with a lot of things, some try to sway others into a controlled way of thinking and doing, which takes away from the initial concept of art as an expression of oneself.

Marsha

The simple answer for me is: YES

The more complicated answer is that an amateur hobbyist can produce a stunning 'craft' composition that really moves me, and the professional can produce a mare of an icon that I can take or leave. (and vice versa of course).

I'm not sure I can answer your second question as easily though...

Regards,

TB