Al,

Perhaps what you are seeking hasn't been or can even be put to words.

And again, I may not understand what you are actually wanting to know. Do you want us to take the word "art" as it is defined, and use it a bonsai related sentence? Seriously, I may have lost the point of this post and want to understand what is being asked.

Some thoughts to what I think art is:

When you have captured within that which you have created, an essence of life and emotion, however slight, or on grande scale, is "art".


Some thoughts.


Paul

Ther are some that advocate that the Westerers are lazy when it comes to producing bonsai. We are not willing to learn the rules, we have no attention span to succumb to Japanese traditions. And the only reason we do bonsai in America is to consider it a hobby, and to hell with everyone else. Except my tree for what it is, and if you don't like it, tough.

Yet when speaking about the Europeans, it is of opinion that they come from the cradle of art expression and so take bonsai on a more serious level. When one tries to navigate around these ideals, it is said that the reson you don't "see it" is because you don't appreciate art. Some say that all bonsai in Europe seem to be exhibited with judging in mind, and that that in itself would help to motivate bonsai to a higher level.

I guess what I am looking for is why are American trees always spoken about in a lazy, laxidasical, devil may care attitude. Do we not produce classic bonsai here. Maybe its because all the American venues seem to think that conventions can only pull big numbers with Professional, High Profile Bonsai Stars. Is there not the talant here in America that produce bonsai Icon stature trees.

And... If we don't, why is that? Whats missing?

Paul, I understand what you are saying perfectly. This is a hrrd question to put to words, as well as the possible answers.

I will try this.

If you make your best bonsai..

Your neighbor gazes upon it, and says that that is the most exquisite thing they have ever seen...

And you post it here telling your story, and someone like Walter, who is well respected as being a mover and shaker in the Bonsai Art World, tells you that your tree looks good but does not fit the wold of artfull bonsai....

Does this mean you are not an artist?

Who makes the dicisions of who is an artist and who is not. What is this based on, a body of work left for generations to view?

In your neigbors eyes you are an artist.

Does the opinion of a Bonsai artist carry more weight that an admirer of simple beauty?

For me, I see too much pressure put on the creation of bonsai that must fit some preconcieved notion, rather than just doing the best one can with the stock they have.

For me anyway I see Art as talent. You either have it or you don't. If your tree looks good to more than just you, then you are an artist. the rest is just subjective.

OK,Al, let me get into something very esoteric and hope that I don't lose you (and all you lurkers out there).

Several years ago, a very smart guy at Harvard named Peter Senge came up with the idea of "mental models". He used this concept, as well as some others related to it, to transform several world class corporations, most notably Royal Dutch Petroleum from failing companies to world beaters.

Now, what does this have to do with Bonsai? Read on, my friend.

Mental models are the basic mental constructs we have in our heads that inform us with the knowledge of how the world works. They are something like paradigms, but much more elaborate and may have conscious elements as well as unconscious elements. They are the basis of how we decide what we will do and how we will do it.

Bonsai, like everything else we do, are developed based on the mental models we have to do it with. These mental models may be very deep, elaborate, detailed and complete or they may be very shallow, simple, incomplete and even fallacious. They may be shared in large part with other members of our community and actively refined through active communication, or very personal and highly idiosynchratic.

The quality of our completed trees depends more on the quality of our "Bonsai Mental Model" than anything else. Oh, it is true, execution counts, and, no doubt, plain old luck enters into it, too, but, hopefully, you grasp the importance of the contribution that one's mental model makes.

I see "rules" as being merely a presentation of information describing an important part of the mental models of the most skilled practitioners in the Bonsai Community.

Is it OK to disregard "the rules"? Why, absolutely. It's not as if the Bonsai Police are going to arrest you and put you in Jail somewhere deep in Central Japan if you disregard them. Is it a good idea to make the effort to inderstand "the rules"? Only if you care as much about developing a really deep, complete and valid Bonsai Mental Model as you do about tinkering with little trees in pots. And, being able to communicate in words as well as examples with other members of your community.

I have little patience with newbies (or, for that matter, not-so-newbies) that express hostility or indifference to the "rules". Sure, go ahead and "do your own thing". Just recognize that it puts you on the outer fringes of our community, makes it unlikely that you will ever do much that is really enjoyed by anybody but yourself and makes it unlikely you will ever be able to communicate with the rest of the Bonsai Community.

Best regards, Fred

I totally agree with you on that one fred




ROBOKU

I think a new thread should be started with the title


ART OR CRAP

people can post trees and take it to a vote ??

Fred,

I like this idea of mental models very much. I think it is another word for paradigm. I think that the overwelming majority of bonsai enthusiasts have no idea about their underlying model. This includes the majority of professionals. They just do bonsai and think there is only one bonsai philosophy.

I see a few mental models which prevail in the present bosnai world. There are three which are of real importance and influence.

1) Bonsai is the art of creating somehting which conforms to a certain set of rules. Good bonsai conform to what is known as Japanese rules. If looking at a piece of material, at any bonsai or even at any natural large tree one immediately starts to apply the rules mentally. Thus one finds the faults and the area to start working on. If one puts all the faults away one ends up with the bonsai of ultiamte beauty. The final aim is to be able create something that looks as close as possible to the ideal classical Japanese bonsai.

3) Bonsai is about trees, about impressive natural trees. It is the art to bring the spirit of an impressive wild tree into a small tre in a container. One has to see as many wild trees as possible and grasp their spirit and forms. There is a set of craft skills which are absolutely necesary and there are ready models, canned bonsai which can be used as a start. But if one does not go beyond copying these models (classical bonsia) one jsut does not perform art but only copies what someone else has done before. This is called craft; not bad per se but NOT BONSAI ART, just the beginning of bonsai. The aim is to create a bonsai that lookes like a tree and not make a tree look like a bonsai, as John Naka has lectured.

I think I don't have to mention which is the mental model that I prefer.

best regards
Walter Pall

OK, I go along with that. So if my mental model is that I like highly stylized Traditional Japanese style Bonsai, I would have much less patience for a tree done in a neo-classical style. My mental model would prefer to see trees that were finely groomed and displayed with finely wired tips and every nueance of the branches kept just so. I might go so far as to wonder why someone would waste their time in not seeking out the best possible material, so that they could spend all their time in bonsai refinement, rather than spending all their time in developing taper, branch structure and things like that...

I might also wonder why other people would not think like me? I might get to the point that I may even work very hard to sway people to my way of thinking.

Could this motivation of the perfect mental model drive one so hard that they become obsessed with their way of thinking, and that no one else could possibly do it better?

Damn, Walter we posted at the same time. You hit upon something that has rung my bell. It was easy but I had not thought to rationalize it so easy.

OK, so since you brought it up, and you are the resident posting Bonsai professional here, How do you recognize between the two? What seperates bonsai from art and craft? How can the craftsman seperate the two, since the artist should have the upper hand, it would be up to the craftsman to move to the higher level. How does the craftsman know he has moved into the realm of an artist, and who decides?

Bonsaial

Fred and Walter,
Bravo - well said.

Getting caught up in the "rules" can limit ones way of seeing, thinking, and feeling. There is something sad about one believing they're an artist, yet they always stay within "the lines." That's not to say there aren't certain principles that should be followed to some degree - but "mental models" are individual, as are we.