Fred,

In your seperation of craftsman and artist, you are seperating teh vision from the product. Without teh combination of teh two you get something that may be suited to a certain function, but not necessarily a designed whole. An artist creates a vision, while a craftsman fllows that vision with action. Ideally these two elements happen in a connected manner. This introduction of a disjoint ends up with products such as those mass produced furniture forms created by factory mass productionduring the industrial revolution, or the white box houses of the modern movement.

As you expressed an appreciation to fine furniture, I will point out that the furniture designated as craftsman style came about from just such a battle. IT was the recombination of teh artist with the craftsman rebelling against teh factory forced disjoint. Even though it was simple in form, it was the expression of an ideal (the value of the hand made, plus the combination of art and craft) as an ideal, visionary, or symbolic interpritation, it was artistic, as a solid functional piece, it was well crafted.

D.S.

Long as it took to read this thread, I'm glad I did - it has been a really interesting read and challenged me to think harder about some of my own perceptions about bonsai.

Personally, I believe that as soon as we have begun to make concious decisions about design elements of a bonsai that we think will result in a more convincing or pleasing appearance, then we have taken steps in an artistic direction. We may not conciously employ aesthetic prinicples in making that decision - we are probably far more likely to arrive at the decision 'automatically' - what 'looks' better. It is only after the event that we may see that what we have done fits with accepted artistic principles. This is for good reason - artistic principles are an expression of what generally 'works'.

I think bonsai is far more than craft to anyone who has even done something as simple as considering the exact placement of the tree in a pot. Once one has thought about something like this and how it affects the overall composition to the viewer, then craft has been transcended and art is the result. It need not be pretentious or self-indulgent - simply choosing the pot for the tree is an artistic expression which is very personal. A tree may look good in different pots, but there will be one pot which connects with the viewer and conveys something of what the tree is trying to represent.

Fish.

For those that took the trouble to respond to me, personally, "Thank you". I always feel pleased when my comments are stimulating enough to get a response.

Let me say that I started out by noting that I was speaking only about my personal Bonsai Philosophy, not any sort of Universal Principles. I may be speaking for a minority of one, but as a Bonsai Practitioner, I feel more akin to model railroaders than great (or little) painters. I guess that for me, craftsmanship evokes the spirit of Model Railroading better than artistry. As it better evokes the spirit of what I, personally, am trying to do.

Now, I am sure all this is debatable. I am not trying to persuade anybody of anything, merely trying to make my thoughts available.

The people that I have liked best in the bonsai community seem to have an attitude of humility and are very down-to-earth. They totally lack the sort of over-blown grandiosity that, to me, seems to charactarize the effort to explain bonsai as art. Most of the bonsaists that I've liked best I think would be happy to be considered craftsmen. I'd be happy to attain that status, myself.

Best regards, Fred

Fred, make that a minority of at least two.

I am far happier with considering myself a craftsman than an artist.

For me too, this thread has helped me to arrive at my own 'bonsai philosophy', which is pretty much the same as yours.

There is something else as well for me though. It's difficult to put into words, but I'll try...

I am not happy with picking apart emotional concepts to find out what makes them tick. I think that once you start to do that, you lose some of the 'magic' of the subject. If I happen to get it right with styling a particular tree, via my 'it looks right' method, It almost seems like 'magic' to me, and often I can't stop grinning from ear to ear, getting all the family to look at my creation. If I'd employed strict adherance to the rules, there would not be such a sense of wonder for me. It would be like painting by numbers.

If I style a pig's ear, then I can resort to the rules, and get some satisfaction out of salvaging a mess, or just keep re-doing it my way until it looks right.

It is possible that I absorbed all the design concepts when I first learned about them, and now it's all intuitive. I don't really know. I think that if I'd never found out about the accepted design concepts (rules) I would still have ended up styling trees that look ok.

Regards,

TB

I think that's what it's all about, defining one's own personal philosophy about bonsai.

I have to agree with Fred as far as being satisfied that I've been able to learn the craft of Bonsai over the years. I feel lucky.

People see my bonsai and those who have never seen one before are mystified while those practitioners who stop from around the country will give me the business and usually try and buy something.

I love it. It's fun..... As far as the Art paradigm is concerned....I can take it or leave it. I'll talk about it and discuss it but it's not important to me.

As far as the "rules" are concerned, I remember when I first started bonsai, I couldn't get enough books to learn from. There weren't many around other than the Sunset book, Gerald Stowell's book and a little book called The Art of Training Plants, by Ernesta Drinker Ballard, which was a big help. That book helped a lot!

I did come across a Japanese book from the early 1900's from Japan in the Southern Illinois University library though that turned my head around.

What I learned in that book was that the information that we now take for granted about the "rules", or principles of how to get a plant off it's feet and into a bonsai pot and keep it alive for a long time, was handed down by word of mouth from one bonsai Master to the apprentices, just as in any other craft. These principles or rules were a big secret in the orient. Every Tom, Dick and Harry couldn't go to the library or local bonsai club or internet and get information about bonsai. I just thought this fact might put things in perspective a little.

I'm with many of you who have said this thread has helped them define their own ideas about art. I have spent much time over the past couple years thinking about the issue. This thread helps me see that the whole discussion borders on the ridculous. We are who are, doing what we do. Some will create trees that they or others see as artistic. Some will see themelves as hobbyists or craftsman. Some continue to think that one counrty or another is better at bonsai than others. But it all boils down to the fact that we are all doing what we love to do mostly because we simply love to do it.

I especially liked Fred's comments: "With all of its bickering and personal comments, this thread has been pretty useful to me in helping me to
define and express my own, personal Bonsai Philosophy. I am coming to believe that, for me, "craftsmanship" far better expresses what I love and admire in good bonsai than "artistry"." Being a fan of Craftsman furniture (We even live in a craftsman styled house and I have built most the furniture in the same style) that idea clicked.

"Bonsai Craftsmen": the idea has a nice feel to it.

Earl

I agree. That's why early on in the thread, I mentioned something about rules making it seem like one has to "stay within the lines" - like painting by numbers.

It ultimately shouldn't matter what title you give the designer/artisan/craftsman/raper of leafy things/horticultural maniac, etc. Call yourself whatever you will. There will always be at least one person who will question your styling idea. That's why this thread goes on and on.

Viva la difference!

I have to say that I'm thrilled and incredibly impressed that this is where this thread has arrived. This is what it's all about for me, the point where anyone can access an ancient tradition and make it their own. I think that if the West has anything to contribute to bonsai, it will revolve around the democratization of its technique and appreciation. You guys rock!

Woops. I, too, like where this thread has arrived with one exception. I was being a little sexist: I should have said craftspeople, craftswomen, craftsmen. I certainly don't want to exclude a major component to our endeavor!

Earl

Im with you salix,Its amazing after all that debating that there is actually a agreement on somthing.Thanks all for a learning experience


regards




ROBOKU