Andy
Very well put. I totally agree with what you said in your last post with the

"This is the largest part of what I'm referring to when I say that Europe is far ahead of the U.S. in bonsai art."

and all the other stuff.

Well Australia I believe is behind where the US is. In my honest opinion there are only a very few number of bonsai artists in Australia. I believe most other people fall under that hobbist, growers, enthusiast to name a few if I was to follow with what Andy has just said.

David

Andy:

In a private email to me you outlined the efforts you're involved in to promote bonsai as an art, not just an exercise in horticulture. I was very glad to hear about this. I feel as though I am on a sort of parallel mission, to promote bonsai as a spiritual or philosophical pursuit, not just an exercise in horticulture--something somebody does because it's "cool."

Unfortunately, your mission goes unnoticed in your tone. You can't pummel your views into someone else's head. It simply doesn't work.

I understand your contention that the US doesn't have a culture as such, because we are too young for that to have taken place. If you're thinking of a unified culture, you're right. This is a very diverse place. But, look at cultures/societies which are homogenous. They often have difficulty absorbing other viewpoints. Some countries in Europe, for instance, have a tough time accepting immigrants as citizens. I'm willing to sacrifice a homogenous culture for a society which is at least partially capable of accepting people from other cultures.

We don't have a homogenous culture. To bemoan that is to bang your head against a wall. The thing to do is live with it, and learn from it.

Craig Cowing
Blooming Grove NY
Zone 5b/6a

Hi Craig,

I hate to keep making this an ongoing defense of my intent (being completely irrelevant), but this seems to all that some want to dwell on...

Craig, my "tone" has nothing to do with my "mission." I cannot help it that some people infer a condescension in my tone simply because I am pointing out misconceptions and wrong assumptions. I do get understandably upset when some put forth information, represented as fact, which is inaccurate. Even though, there will always be some who equate knowledge with condescension, but that's not my problem.

What you call "bludgeoning," I call correcting inaccuracies. There should be an obvious distinction. To allow bad information to be passed in this discussion would be irresponsible. I don't care if people don't appreciate it. Correcting inaccuracies and misconceptions is simply the right thing to do.

Much of the root of the contention with my words is based on the misconception that I am arguing about opinions - and not "properly" considering the opinons of others. The thing is, I have not taken issue with one single "opinion" in this discussion. Opinions will vary and we have to live with that. While it is fun, productive and often instructive to debate opinions, I am rather taking issue with inaccurate information that some put forth as "fact," not opinion. There are plenty of opinions in art, but I would find it a bit silly and quite impossible to correct someone's opinion. So can we dispense with this ridiculous claim?

As to my citing ignorance, it is absurd that anyone get upset at that. Ignorance is something that we all possess about some things and when it is the reason for the misstatments and inaccuracies of some here, it is no insult to point it out. The only insult that can come from pointing out ignorance is an insult to the ego - something that is not relevant in this forum.

Note, however, that while I have no problem correcting the misstatements and inaccuracies of other, I never criticize or insult people personally. I dwell on the relevant words, attitudes and subject matter.

So, I ask that we stop looking for excuses to have our feelings hurt and dwell on the substance of the discussion. And if you "feel" I or someone else has slighted you, instead of making silly generalizations about the percieved insult, be specific and explain precisely why it was substantively wrong or personally insulting to make such and such an assertion.

Thanks.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

Very good points, Andy. Maybe in response to these points we could all agree to conduct our squabbling, nitpicking, whining, insults, defensive tantrums, shrill protests, or other unsightly conflicts through the Personal Message system, and leave actual discussions to the public boards... I'm game if you are.

>Craig, my "tone" has nothing to do with my "mission." I cannot help it that some people
infer a condescension in my tone simply because I am pointing out misconceptions and wrong assumptions.

Sure you can help it. Each of us alone is responsible for our own words and the way we present them. It is possible to disagree with someone, even point out what you perceive as inacccuracies, without being condesecending. The way in which a person presents him/herself can go a long way in helping the other person understand a diferent point of view.



Having said that, I'll try to turn the topic back to that of the art of display, which I think was the main thought of the thread. One generalization of yours, I will address briefly, which is that Europeans are better than Americans in displaying bonsai. That's a generalization, of the sort you decry. Yes, the European displays we've seen on the IBC Gallery, for instance, posted by Walter Pall and others, have been supurb in every detail, from the setting, to the backdrops, accent plants, etc.

Whenever I see a post by Walter Pall in the IBC Gallery on an exhibition in one place or another I always look at it, because I know I'll learn something. There was one awhile back that was held in an old estate somewhere. The bonsai were on stands in a long gallery. A magnificent setting for superb trees. But these folks are the cream of the crop. How do you know that some local club up in the hills isn't just as haphazard as the exhibit in California that Al Keppler showed a few pics from? You admit yourself that you've never been to Europe.

Now, you could say the standard is higher in Europe, but I've seen some pictures of exhibitions in the US, although I can't name any offhand, where they have done a good job of displaying their trees.



Craig Cowing
Blooming Grove NY
Zone 5b/6a

Thanks.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

I've been trying for several days now not to find this whole thing just unbearably annoying, but once again, I couldn't just let it go. So I moseyed on over to the IBC and read some of the related discussion over there, to see if I could get some insight into what exactly the whole big flap is all about.

Based on what I read there, and then what I just read here, my conclusions are that:

1. Bonsai is an artistic pursuit, in that it involves the use of design principles and artistic sensibility, and in that it expresses something specific about traditional conventions and natural forms, but it is fundamentally different than other forms of art in that it produces living, dynamic works that will cease to have value if transfered to an owner that is not him or herself initiated into an intense understanding of bonsai.

2. Some people are not satisfied to leave #1 as-is, and have, as their political agenda, recognition by the art community of bonsai as 'an Art.'

3. Although bonsai could be considered 'an Art' in the same way that painting or sculpture is 'an Art,' I can find no reason why it should be. In what way would bonsai, or the art community, for that matter, be enhanced by such consideration? Why can't we let art be art and let bonsai remain as bonsai? Nobody tries to get art galleries to show movies or have bands play and have them treated the same as static art forms.

4. Several people on here (and elsewhere) seem to be suffering under the misconception that the USA has no culture (whatever that means). This is patently false, bordering on the nonsensical, and is a statement that has been made in abuse of the US for far too long. Anyone who takes the time to educate themselves on the topic (at least long enough to peruse a dictionary) will quickly realize that American culture is rich, active, healthy, and in many ways, more prolific than in many other countries.

I realise that this is not representative of small clubs right across Europe, but...

The club nearest to me, Chiltern Bonsai, (incidentally in the Chiltern HILLS ) have their main spring/summer show in a small village hall. Small, as in 25 people would struggle to fit in the hall.
They also put on displays in local garden centres occasionally.

Their shows and displays that I have attended have all been very well presented. The trees are always displayed sensitively, with a plain white backdrop. One display was in a polytunnel at a local authority depot. Care had obviously been taken to ensure that the trees were the focus of the display. The opaque white walls of the tunnel showed off the bonsai superbly.

Until Al mentioned the US v. EU standards, I must admit that I had never given the matter any thought. I just thought all bonsai worldwide were always shown the way I'd seen them. Now, I am sure there are some shoddy shows in Europe, just as there are some stunning ones in the US.

Regards,

TB

Hi "Salix,"

I tend to agree with your characterization. I do, as has been pointed out a few times, disagree with you on points of opinion, but surely only the future results of these and other wonderful conversations and debates will show any resolution to these ideas and ideals.

What is really cool is that there are now lots of people seriously, even "spiritedly" discussing artistic concepts and foundations as they relate to art. Regardless of what level of agreement and similar concept is present now, the future of bonsai will surely benefit from these hard considerations.

-----

As an aside, can I ask that we all sign our posts with our full names? I notice that few do and while annonymity is necessary for some engagements on the Internet, here I believe that we're all served better by not trying to hide who we are. Just a thought. Thanks!

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

I couldn't agree more with this sentiment. I have always believed that the true meaning of art was found in the discussion of (and even disagreements about) it.

Another issue that was raised a while back in this thread was judging. Is it typical for European shows to be judged? From what I gather in my limited experience in the US, shows here are rarely judged.

I wonder if that inspires a different attituded toward art.

Doug

or (for Andy)
Douglas Thomas
Santa Monica, CA

Sorry to be a butt about it, but everything I want people to know about me is available in my profile, with the exception of my first name, which I have used to sign off a number of times. I don't see why anybody needs more information than that. We're all friends here, so I feel comfortable just going by my first name, Dan.

I could make something up if you're prepared to press me on it, though...


-Dan.