ART; 1: skill 2: branch of learning 3: creation of works of beauty or works so produced 4: ingenuity

While my dictionary is a pocket dictionary, I am sure there are more detailed discriptions than this. For the purposes of this thread I think they serve adaquatly.

Art in Bonsai, what does it mean? I am sure that it means different thingd to different people. I know it means different things to people right here on the forum. We have expressed differances in style and why we like certain things about the trees we see.

On the IBC there is a heated debate about the term of art within the realm of bonsai. Andy Rutledge is always ever present to come to the aid of art in bonsai. But.. there are opinions from others that make sense. While art in bonsai needs to follow certain asthetic art rules, what are they? Are they written down for all to follow? How do they apply to bonsai?

The rift, or so it seems, is that to produce tastefull and artfull bonsai, then a certain measure of the rules must be adheared to. One must learn the rules before they can be broken. Andy has made it quite clear that the rules are not 1,2,3 branch, the height must be 6 times the thickness of the trunk, 2/3 rule, or the rules that are written in the books.

I know very little about art appreciation. There are whole college courses that can be taken about it. For me, any way the art part is simple. I know about 's' curves, diminishing perspective, negative space, visual speed, forced perspective, taper, balance and symmetry. I am sure there are many aspects af art that I know nothing about. Of course I don't do world class bonsai, probably never will, and am not sure that is even a disire at this pont in my life.

What does all this have to do with this thread? I think the question is what does ART have to do with bonsai? I am not being flip here, this is a question.

Does the viewer have to be educated in art to view bonsai properly?

Does a person with an art degree become an artist automaticly?

Does having an art degree make you a better artist than someone that doesn't have an art background?

I can look at a tree that has been designed by someone else, I look at it, critique it in my head, think about the things I may have done different, and come to an assesment on whether or not I think this is good bonsai. If I am moved, It is good.

What are the criterion for these so called artist trees? What is it that makes them far and away better than the rest? What am I supposed to be looking for, or is it a feeling? Is is a display, maybe a three point display, maybe the pot, or the way the whole package is put together.

I feel that the promotion of bonsai on an artfull level must progress to a stage of higher learning. There must be someone that can put this down in words for all to understand? It can't be that complicated!

Andy what is Missing?

Best regards, Bonsai-al

To your three bold questions (pun intended), I answer NO, NO, and NO!

Great art, the art that is conserved and loved throughout multiple eras and ages of civilization, is art that speaks clearly to the sensibilities of everyday laypeople, that addresses the emotional and cultural realities of all people at all times. A real art education involves simply looking at as many of these immortal works as possible in the context in which they were created, in order to understand the artist. It has no bearing on the works themselves, nor does it in and of itself impart an ability to create great art.

( In family feud voice) Good Answer!

But Andy seems to think that the West cannot do good bonsai because we refuse to look at bonsai as an artform. How does one look at bonsai as an artform, without studying art? Do you have to study art to get it. What does art have to offer that having a good eye does not?

Theres got to be some answer that difinitivly answers these questions.

BTW, My three bold questions have to do with the learning of doing art and its sciences and not so much the appreciation aspect.

As an american "freestylist" bonsai person, I must first ask more questions.

Why do Japanese bonsaists do bonsai?
Do they intend to create in order to gain popularity in the artform?
Were they told to do so or die?

Why do you do bonsai? This question came up before. But more specifically......like figure skating....are you an ameteur or a professional??

Having a degree make you an artist automatically? IMHO,
Artists are born, we just do not wake up one day and say I am an artist. We in one way or another have something that is deep inside us and it needs to get out. Expressing oneself in music, paints or bonsai are different outlets.

I do not know how to intelligently explain the reasoning behind Andy's thoughts about Western Bonsai. I think that we are holding our own. Everything evolves. As bonsai has made its way to my yard. It has changed many faces, most likely because I have Jack pines growing in my yard and not Black pines.

Does the viewer have to be well versed in the art of Bonsai to view it properly? No, I saw my first bonsai in person and did not know anything about them. I was consumed by its beauty. The artist created such a beauty that it was easy for me to be drawn into it fully. Much like when I first saw my first Caravaggio. I know nothing about the art of painting either.

I think some people have a better "eye" and can express the "art" in bonsai better than others. I would think in Japan, if you were a lousy bonsai artist, you were still sweeping up the soil after the master had left.

I think alot of us are just on different playing fields. Specimen availability, workshop availability, club and instruction availability.....the list can go on. There are exceptional bonsai enthusiasts here in North America. From Florida to California, all way up and thru Canada.

Lastly,
I agree that for me to further my appreciation for Bonsai, I would have to understand the dynamics of all it entailed.

Paul

"What are the criterion for these so called artist trees? What is it that makes them far and away better than the rest? What am I supposed to be looking for, or is it a feeling? Is is a display, maybe a three point display, maybe the pot, or the way the whole package is put together."

I should know better than to enter this heated discussion. But It is this sort of discussion that has always stimulated me, although a real lot of irrelevant things come up usually. So what!

My short answer to the questions above:

An artistic bonsai is a little tree in a container that moves my heart. That moves my heart although it is hard-boiled by having been exposed to so many trees before. The person who has made this happen is an artist.
A beatiful little tree in a container that does not move my heart can still be an excellent piece of craft to me, but not art in my very personal sense.

It is not beauty, but can be beauty that touches my heart, it can be anything, it canot be put into words. It is like the sexy kick, if you know what I mean. If I see it I know it immediately. If you ask me why, I can give you a lot of words, but not an answer. BUT I KNOW!

confusing enough?
Walter Pall

I feel that the more one learns about a certain art form the more appreciable they will be toward that art, but that should go without saying. People are born artistic. People who have to learn artistic values to be an artist are mearly non artists with alot of practice.

Show me an art scholar with no born artistic values with a tree and I'll show you a topiary.

Show me someone born with art in their blood and alittle practice and I'll show you a bonsai.

Al, you raise a very interesting issue, to which I'd like to add my $.02 worth.

Back in my college days at "Dear Old Rutgers" (No, Mr. Magoo was not the sole alumnus of that revered institution), I took a course named "Art, Music and Literature". It had a reputation for being an easy way for Science Majors like myself to fill our "Humanities" requirements. I found it frustrating and, to a significant degree, nonsensical. I came away thinking that to a very significant degree, the whole humanities area was a kind of conspiracy hatched by second rate minds without the academic ability or the self discipline required to succeed at the far more demanding scientific areas of study. I got a "C". My friend Alex, who talked me into the class and who made a whole college career of skating by on the easiest classes available, got an "A".

I haven't really changed that much. I have enormous respect for art and artists. But "Art Appreciation"? Whole nuther story.

I think that the value of any art lies in its emotional impact, which means that beauty lies in the eye of the beholder. Now does this mean there is no place for rules, standards and the other devices by which artists control their efforts and transmit their techniques to others? Absolutely not! I am a HUGE supporter of rules for bonsai. But not as adjuncts to Bonsai Art Appreciation, rather as the necessary tools of practicing artists.

I think that all art is a community endeavor and that the communities that appreciate a particular art form share a common emotional and perceptual makeup. For some artforms, that may mean most of humanity. The community that appreciates Bonsai, though sizeable, is much smaller than that. Bonsai that has emotional impact for the members of that community pretty much shares certain charactaristics. The "rules" provide the information as to how to achieve that impact.

Best regards, Fred

Back to the point

About the perfect bonsai I Think that the standards have just got higher over the years. That should be expected though. When cars were first invented they were fine back then though not nearly up to todays standards. They just keep getting better. 20 years from now a 2002 BMW will be a peice of crap that dont even fly. I expect the same thing in bonsai. 20 or 30 years from now the things that we do now will be primative... "What,,Concave cutters? wheres your lazer cutter and electronic wound healer man?"

LOL..............It could happen

Fred,
Iam deeply impressed. I am in this discussion since 20 years. I have written a very thick book about bonsai with many hundred pages about the art.
I have never met a clearer statement about what art in bonsai is and what the bonsai rules have to do with it.
Thank you
Walter Pall

Fred, I have to agree with Walter, very nice explanation of what motivates a person to see beautiful bonsai and what moves them. My question goes beyond that though. Everyone including you talk about the rules. I agree they exist. But what are they and how do they apply to bonsai and how does one know when one has used them? Explain with samples of trees if that is what is needed. I have been stirred in my heart by bonsai here, but have still been told that the bonsai produced does not conform to art induced bonsai. What is it precisely that makes the differance, and if this is not something that can be explained, why do we even include it in the bonsai vocabulary.