Thanks Ron, Iv'e asked that exact question about twenty times on the forum and never really recieved a satisfactory answer. Maybe you will have better luck.

In the mean time there is pretty good reading in these two super heated discussions on bonsai design and rules.

http://forum.bonsaitalk.com/showthr...rules+of+design

http://forum.bonsaitalk.com/showthr...rules+of+design

I would say that I got my foundation from John Naka's bonsai techniques I and II These were the first serious books that I purchased on bonsai design.

I find this idea that only a seasoned expert can attempt and succeed at something outside the norm to be mildy ridiculous...

NOT ONE single tree of mine follows ALL the rules (conventions, style principles, whatever). Not because of any conscious decision, but just because it is VERY difficult to find that 'perfect' material. I tried and struggled at the start to adhere to these rules, but kept getting frustrated when the material just didn't fit them. I came to the conclusion that the only way to get satisfaction with the material was to bend the rules.

Now this doesn't mean throwing out all the centuries of tradition that the art of bonsai has.

Nor does it mean that I consider myself above doing things conventionally.

And it is not an excuse for a poorly styled tree to be called avant garde.

What it means is - go with the tree. Don't force the tree to be something it isn't. Incorporate flaws into the design (I know this has been said before here). I don't see that you need 20 years experience to be able to do that. Are we being told to throw away material that is not in strict accordance with the rules?

If you consciously want to experiment, who says you need to get it right first time on a 400 year old yamadori? What about trying on cheap garden centre stock? If it turns out cr@p, then learn from it and try again. Get stuck in there! Don't wait 20 years and then try straying form the guidelines. We all are aware of the timescales involved in bonsai, why drag things out even longer? If it doesn't work, try again! How else is anyone supposed to acquire the skills to overcome obstacles in design? You're not going to be able to handle problems if all you ever do is rote bonsai.

There has to be a learning curve with straying, just as there is a learning curve with adherance. Why not let the two run side by side? Surely that will better equip the artist than just adherance then straying.

Regards,

TB

so much for the impassioned argument.

here is the cynical view.

RAH!! I've spent 25 years getting where I am! How dare a beginner get there in 2 years?!?

Regards,

TB Chris

I find this idea that only a seasoned expert can attempt and succeed at something outside the norm to be mildy ridiculous...

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Could not agree with you more
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NOT ONE single tree of mine follows ALL the rules (conventions, style principles, whatever). Not because of any conscious decision, but just because it is VERY difficult to find that 'perfect' material. I tried and struggled at the start to adhere to these rules, but kept getting frustrated when the material just didn't fit them. I came to the conclusion that the only way to get satisfaction with the material was to bend the rules.

***************
Again I am in total agreement
**************

Now this doesn't mean throwing out all the centuries of tradition that the art of bonsai has.

Nor does it mean that I consider myself above doing things conventionally.
And it is not an excuse for a poorly styled tree to be called avant garde.

************************
Good
************************

What it means is - go with the tree. Don't force the tree to be something it isn't. Incorporate flaws into the design (I know this has been said before here). I don't see that you need 20 years experience to be able to do that. Are we being told to throw away material that is not in strict accordance with the rules?

********************************
Again I agree with the first part but have to say no to the last part..
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If you consciously want to experiment, who says you need to get it right first time on a 400 year old yamadori? What about trying on cheap garden centre stock? If it turns out cr@p, then learn from it and try again. Get stuck in there! Don't wait 20 years and then try straying form the guidelines. We all are aware of the timescales involved in bonsai, why drag things out even longer? If it doesn't work, try again! How else is anyone supposed to acquire the skills to overcome obstacles in design? You're not going to be able to handle problems if all you ever do is rote bonsai.

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Good point but why start on a piece of something that will not work just because it is cheap. Not saying that all garden center stuff won't work just that most of it wont. The original selection of material still has to be good. Something workable.
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There has to be a learning curve with straying, just as there is a learning curve with adherance. Why not let the two run side by side? Surely that will better equip the artist than just adherance then straying.

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They should but they should be done logically

Ron

A counter view: I find the traditional principles to be extremely valuable because I'm not only trying to learn artistic design, but also I'm trying to learn a large number of relatively advanced horticultural techniques. It's one thing to know what I want my tree to look like; it's another altogether to actually get it there. The traditional principles give me something like a template to aim for, to try to achieve. And then when I make mistakes or when my expectations were unrealistic, it is (painfully) obvious as my trees fail to achieve this template.

This makes it easy to separate out horticultural problems from aesthetic ones. If I march to beat of my own drummer and my tree fails to create the desired impression, it is much harder to tell whether this is because it didn't go where I wanted it, or whether the design was unfortunate to being with. So by working within the traditional framework, I think I learn faster. And then I more quickly get to the point where I have the horticultural skill to bend the rules successfully.

---

As for the cynical viewpoint, I think that's patently unfair to just about every 25-year practioner I know. I'd also be absolutely astonsihed if someone's second-year effors are "where" a 25-year practioner is as well. I'm sure there are such cases, but I'd imagine they're very rare - and I sure would love to see examples. After all, there's an easy test there. Post the photos.

(I realize you aren't necessarily saying that your trees are 25-year trees, but someone's must be if the cynical viewpoint is to hold water.)

Best Regards,
Old Mister Crow

It seems to me that bonsai is a lot like Baseball: Experience is valuable but there are distinctly different degrees of talent. Willie Mays was probably a better player at 14 than most people will ever be. And in the practice of Bonsai, there are definitely the Willie Mayses and then, the rest of us.

I have come to realize that I will never be a "Bonsai Willie Mays" Nevertheless, I enjoy "the game" and exercising my poor talents, no matter how modest the result. I'll consider myself darn lucky if I'm ever the equivalent of a Minor League .200 hitter, but it doesn't diminish my love for what I'm doing. And, I'm frank in my admiration for the real talents in our field. And grateful to them for explaining, at least inpart, how they do what they do in the form of bonsai "rules". These "rules" enable me to create trees that I, at least", find enormoiusly satisfying, even if I do create them in a kind of "paint-by- the numbers" sort of way.

I know that analogies may break down at any point, but a well known phenomenon in Baseball is that great players seldom make great coaches or managers. Perhaps those of us of modest talent develop greater insight into what makes great baseball or great bonsai by having to become more consciously aware of the elements of what creates success and, as a reult, more able to explain it to ourselves and others. I'm not sure there is an exact correlation between being able to do bonsai and being able to understand and explain bonsai. As a result, I do not entirely judge the value of someone's comments by the beauty of their trees.

Respectfully, Fred

Actually I am not offended by the remark. It was, I think, made in jest.
I have been doing bonsai for well over 30 years and am constantly amazed at what some of the people who have been in bonsai only a couple of years can do. To some it comes easier that others.
Doing good stuff has a lot to do with actual experience and talent. How much time is required is only dictated by ones talents.
Ron

Yep. I should have put in a few smilies to make it obvious.

Regards,

TB

;o) ;o) ;o) ;o)


Here they are

Ron