No OMC I think you have got the point. You just said it better than I did.

Not at all! I actually thought that the monkeys story was a brilliant way of expressing what you were trying to express. I've been thinking about it all day.

Regards,
Old Mister

Ron,

I can think of the chaos this post might cause on other forums on the net. But I think that you are right.

Working in the tropics we have the problem that our trees just don't look like maples and larches and pines. And yes while I'll admit that I do have trees that have been made to look like "proper bonsai", getting something that looks like a genuine tropical tree can be a real challenge.

So what if it doesn't look like a black pine!

The assertion that a is eminently valid.

On the flip side though, I think there is an unfortunate misunderstanding in general about beginners doing the same thing.

People tell beginners to stick to the tried and tested methods and styles. This is good so long as it does not become bonsai by rote. Beginners (like me) often feel intimidated by others (who frankly should know better) who tell them thou shalt not experiment with style. I don't claim to have any great skill in bonsai, but even I, with my meagre knowledge, I can see to a certain extent how, where and when to experiment with the rules. I don't see what is wrong with doing this, as long as it is not used as an excuse for being obtuse. (tx omc)

I have gone OT a bit, apologies

Regards,

Chris.

Yes... we should explore the limits (if there are limits) of bonsai design. But Generally speaking the less your ability the less you should stray from the 'rules'. My personal ability level is still on the lower end of the upturn I should not wonder into new territory..... Artists with more experience are more likely to move off center to do something they know is going to look right. The less experience is more likely to 'take the easy way out' when faced with a problem and say, I'm just trying something new.

To me, moving off the norm with thought and purpose is a good thing... the results may or may not be.

Do I make sense or am I rambling.....THAT I do well!!!

Jay

Ron, I, for one, have no idea what you're talking about. I did get a huge kick out of it anyway! Please keep the stories coming! The metaphor (or whatever it was) was completely lost on me, but I sure loved the tale!

Fred

Let me throw out another metaphor that comes from another Japanese art, Karate.

When you first start Karate training, you are taught very specific techniques. Your wrist must be straight when you punch, your toes must be pulled back when you kick. etc, etc.

As you progress up the ladder of belt rank you start learning Kattas, or forms. These also start out very specific but as you get higher it becomes apparent that everyone has their own style of doing a specific Katta. Now the katta is the same, how it's done is just slightly different.

Then comes sparring, the actual usage of all those strictly regulated techniques that you learned in the beginning. It now becomes apparent that if you stick to classical techniques, you're pretty much doomed to failure. So you have to learn to improvise. You forshorten your full lenght punches and blockes in order to "get the point". Your techniques come on instinct from what you see of your opponent and what you know will work, without even thinking about it. You go with the flow.

HOWEVER! If you had never learned the strictly classical techniques to begin with, your foreshortened sparring techniques would have no power and no speed.

In summary, the classical "rules" allow us to be effectively creative when we progress to the point where we have the technical know how to do so.

Cheers.
Mittar

Now THAT is right on the mark. This is exactly what I think of as the point of the basic principles, especially when learning. Wonderful analogy, Mittar.

Best regards,
OMC

Now here is a thought. Mind you they are only my feeble thoughts and not necessarily a statement of the way things must be done. Or should be done.
I personally think that the basic "rules" of styling a bonsai can be learned in a very short time. Almost an evenings worth of work. Now there is a big difference between knowing the "rules" and being able to competently style a bonsai ( that requires some thought and maybe a bit of talent).
To the best of my knowledge no one has ever written out a list of "rules". Not even John Naka !!!
I must ask myself WHY.
If there is a list of "rules" can anyone out there tell me exactly what they are.
It is easy to say that one must learn the "rules" before they can break them but just what are the rules.
Just put this out there to see what kind of good information I can get from this silly question.
I am after all still just a student. An old one but still a student. I have much to learn and not as much time to learn it as some of the young pups out there. )
Ron Martin

No formal list, of course, but when I talk about the basic principles, I am thinking of something along the lines of the design principles encapsulated in the first six chapters of Dave De Groot's Basic Bonsai Design.

These principles are not something I could learn in an evening, or understand fully in a year, but I'm working on it.

Best regards,
Old Mister