Boy, some names would be great for gossip! I myself have heard a famous master explain how great it was that collected trees were living as long as ten years! Man, if you can't keep a collected tree alive for more than ten years, jus Just because someone has trained in Japan does not make them a great bonsai artist. In fact, closed-mindedness pretty much precludes that (see my signature.) But how are we defining the "Japanese style?" What kind of "rules" is one going to follow to make a "Japanese style bonsai?"

On the other hand, as Jim brought up, aren't too many "Chinese style" or "Naturalistic style" bonsai just excuses for an unwillingness or inability to truly bring out the beauty inherent or hidden in a piece of bonsai stock? Of course this is not the case with the bald-cypress flat tops originated by vaughn Banting, et. al. But a true bonsai artist is an artist, after all. If one cannot accept some of these evolutions of bonsai style, how much of a master can he or she be? I'd find another teacher.

Here is another thread along the same lines.

The Chinese style is simply that. The Chinese style. Not better , not worse.
To discount it is silly. Can I refur you to the last line in your quote above.

Ron, I try to write as clearly and concisely as possible, and if I fail in that, I hope I will be forgiven. I'm not discounting the Chinese style. I am simply saying that it is often the excuse for less than excellent bonsai. The same can be said for bunjin and windswept bonsai.

Ben Oki has said, "One windswept tree is enough for any collection." Does that mean that he is discounting that style? Of course not! I was not saying that they aren't valid styles. They are just too tempting for someone who hasn't made the most out of their tree, or want to use poor material.

Chris,

Sorry, no names. I have confidence I can brain-wash and/or beat him into submission .

Seriously, great points you've made. This individual isn't my teacher, but I always try to learn something, good or bad, from every situation. I feel that individual has some good information to share, but coming down a notch or two (or twelve) off of the "cocky meter" wouldn't hurt them a bit. Still, I have to hope there is a possibility for him to learn acceptance of other ideas.

Warmest regards,

John

You're writting in this case was much better than my reading. ;o)
Sorry

Is anyone willing to post a picture of a tree **they** have done in an "American" or "naturalistic" or other style so that these points can be discussed more concretely?

Joanie

That's very true. Most of the time, this is the case. Only very good and experienced artists are able to develop their own style. When one has to go to great lengths to explain and validate a certain "style", smells like fish market to me.

Well here is my interpretation of the banyan style. Foliage pads need some work but hopefully you get the idea.
The Banyan style is one of those that have been called an American Style.

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What do you consider "great lengths"? The absolute shortest is "it's my art and I created so nanananabooboo"

Is explaining the natural forces that influenced the tree to grow in such a manner too much?

While I agree that a 12 page dissertation might be much, the danger as I see it is with those that would poo-poo anything that is not in their paradigm. They might need the full speech plus a ride through an alligator-infested swamp (maybe even let 'em ride in the boat) to get them to see the light...

Here's a windswept style based on a stand of live oak. Purists might say that it is incongruent because of the smaller more upright tree on the windward side. This occurs because of the effect that the 6-8' dunes have on the wind shear. In fact, I could show pictures of tallows and hackberries that basicallgrow straight up for about 6 feet and then straight out in teh wind direction... Additionally the wind is from a different direction 3-4 months out of the year allowing growth on that side which gets extra light and moisture off the water...

Very long and protracted explanation of an exception to the Japanese imagery of "windswept style"...

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Now I am confused.....And I thought I knew the answer to this dilema.

Formal Upright, Informal Upright, Windswept.....etc.

Are these styles? Or are these Forms? I'll default to Forms to ease my brain. So if we talk about the Bald Cypress Flattop we are talking about a form, not a stlye.

So for styles we now only have Japanese Traditional, Penjing, Naturalistic. Maybe more, but I guess that's not my point since I have no idea what Japanese Traditional would be.

Attila, so nicely showed us pictures and asked a tough question. To answer your question Attila, I only see stunning trees that I can loosely clasify into Informal Upright, Cascade, etc., forms. What style are they? Uh......Perfect?

So to think about creating an American Style has always made me laugh. What would it be? American Gothic, perhaps. Seems to me that in art someone creates something which is a little different, other artists jump on, the community accepts it, ad nauseum.

P.S. Is Kimuras' deadwood carving an 'accepted' style with an accepted name? I really don't know the answer to this.