i am in agreement with will. let me take it a step further though, without the I people, E people could not exist. if everyone were E types, the world would be a boring place. i do not see things like a police officer nor do i have their clarity of right and wrong; i do however respect them though for their clarity. i have to ask this question though: what is grew? for without black and white, grey cannot exist. even then, there are different types of black and different types of white! matte, glossy, flat...

last night at my small group meeting, i found out that one of the guys in the group had the gift of "prophecy" when "prophecy" is defined as having the ability to see things only in shades of black and white. that type of person is extremely rare. the opposite kind of person also exists. that person only sees grey. i pity both types of people.

fred, snap out of it. youre a good guy. youre pretty smart from what ive read. but we all need to understand that imperfections make people unique and therefore interesting. no one is perfect.

best,

jeff

Oh good Lord Fred, Has anyone explained to you that carping on about how put upon you are and how every one is against you would be a little bit boring and tedious. The world hardly revolves around you and your "unique" perspective. Instead of the touchy feelly intellectually superior posts, how about spreading some of that special bonsai know-how?

"I would have expected might be along the lines of, "OK, Fred, you've left me quite curious. I know you well enough to belive you to be a pretty honest guy."

This response may be OK in Fred-land but in the real world, insults and incitements to commit crimes MIGHT be perceived a bit differently. And you don't know any of us well. That feeling of famliarity you seem to have for the people here is an illusion, take it for what it is.

"I'm sure that the folks that are getting so impassioned would make very good neighbors and we'd get along fine. I think they might be very surprized at what a good neighbor I am."

Yeah, riiiiiiight. Will this thought dawn on me before or after you're done rummaging about in my front yard digging up my shrubs, or when you're bending my ear for the eighth straight hour talking about your unhealthy lumbago and complex government plots?

If you're feeling better--GET OUT OF THE HOUSE FOR SOME FRESH AIR, or at least crack a window to let some into the room.

I think that you may also be doing some of the misunderstanding as well here Fred.

Here is an example of something you said that I must have misunderstood. I took this to mean that this was so basic and true that it need not be said but then later you say

So then I feel like your original quote should have been something like, "I don't like people to tell me not to do things that I want to do because it makes me feel bad about myself." [The previous quote was made up and in no way intended to put words in anyone's mouth (or text box)] That seems to be the way that many people on this forum react, whether it be to care or styling advice or when members tell them not to dig that tree along the side of the road without permission (whether it is about to be mowed or not).

I'm all for be self serving. I take care of my kids because it brings me joy (and help my neighbors and buy my wife flowers, etc., etc. as naseum). I only do anything because of what it does for me. I am a very selfish person. I do not feel that being self important and discourteous helps me in any way so I choose not to be such a person.
I'm right there with you on a lot of your comments but, perhaps, you might step back for a minute, look at what you've said in yours comments and begin to walk the talk so to speak.

My $0.02,
JP

well...im off to muddle in my mom's garden and dig up a bougie...

OK, just a quick response for Officer John, then I must be about my business. Met a Mexican guy a few weeks ago that offered my son the opportunity to play on his Soccer team. I promised to introduce him to a couple of local contractors I know. He's a self employed brick layer and looking for subcontracting work. Impressive guy; played professional Soccer in Mexico and strikes me as very hardworking and honest. I'm going to miss our appointments if I waste alot more time on this.

Anyway....let me confess to my crimes:

2 1/2 years ago in the parking lot of a local strip mall, I noticed a number of Amur Maples just loaded with seed. I walked over and helped myself to two or three handfulls of seed. Several people were walking to and from their cars. Just lucky I guess that nobody called 911.

To tell the truth, I have done this sort of thing more than once. Call me a serial seed thief.

Ok, worse than that: In the community of Bella Vista, there are hundreds of lots left from the days of land promotion 20 or 30 years ago that have never been built on. Some are owned by folks in California and Kansas, many have reverted to the Property Owners Assocition for failure to pay dues or taxes. Many of them are way out from the center of the community on roads that have never been paved. The drainage ditches have filled in and the forest has encroached on them as well as, in many places, the road itself. Pretty much, I confine my collecting to seedlings, bit I have collected a few somewhat larger trees. All from the roads or drainage ditches beside them. There's not much point to collecting on the actual lots people own; they're mostly covered with deep forest. A couple of times folks from the local crime watch drove by. They ignored me.

OK, report me to the POA. I will throw myself on their mercy.

Now, this is the really bad one and I have to admit to some qualms even in my criminal mind about it:

About 2 miles from my house, there is a real eyesore of an area used by ATVers, who have left their trails and carnage all over it, and as a dump for everything from beer cans to old refrigerators. The soil under the area is very poor and very thin, with the result that the vegetation in the area, including a very large population of Shortleaf Pines is severely stunted. I don't really know who owns it. From a couple of newspaper articles I saw awhile back, I think it may be a private investment firm who is planning to some day buld a resort hotel on it. I think they've had trouble getting financing for it. Anyway, I will admit to having gathered 6 to 10 seedlings and very small trees on two different occasions from it.

OK, there it is. I'm wondering: should I turn myself in to the local Sheriff Department?

But before you answer: As I said earlier, I observe speed limits religiously. I am not accepting answers except from people who can honestly say they have not driven over the speed limit ever for the last two or three years. I equate my first offense to driving 71 mph on one of our freeways; my second to, perhaps 75 and my final and worst to, say 80. If you feel my offense should be punished, would you not agree, even as yours should be?

Fred

I drive 65 on the freeway about 98% of the time (the posted speed limit here in CA), but 70 more frequently than I'd like to admit and even 75 on occasion. When I get a speeding ticket I'll probably deserve it.

However, I have never felt the need to suggest to authors of driving safety articles and new driver training manuals that reminding prospective drivers --- to abide by the basic speed law, to use their blinkers and to pass on the left --- is trite, common sense or boring.

Regards,

Matt

What's a speed limit?

Anything doing under 100mph in Europe is considered a house.

Or a broken down truck.

Or a Ford.

Fred,

I can't answer since I have been up to 163mph in a 55mph zone. Stupid on my part. Of course, I realize that. I have done a lot of stupid things in my life, but I survived anyway. I thank the Lord for protecting me and everyone else during my ignorant and careless ways. I have seen far too much suffering and death over the years, and I dont ever want to be the cause of more.

Now if you are accepting an answer, here it is:

Seed are a different matter. Discretion on the part of any law enforcement officer would include common sense. Seeds from a maple are designed by nature to spread. There are copious amounts; many more than a landscaped strip mall can grow. They scatter to the wind, and by collecting them to create trees, you are helping nature, PLUS if they were to root in that nice grassy area, they will be mowed down weekly. Strip malls are open to the public, very important aspect. Bottom line: no loss.

Collecting is a different matter. The seedlings/trees are established, hence permanent. You are removing a static item. You are also on PRIVATE property. I have no doubt that IF a person with the authority to grant permission was sought out, they would agree to let you collect. However, the permission step is not waivable, it is mandatory. In my opinion it is usually avoided by those who are too lazy and/or too stupid to make the effort. I lean towards lazy as the more common reason.

Four types of criminal offenses in NC:

Felony
Misdemeanor
Infraction
Ordinance

That is from most serious to least. Speeding is usually an infraction, any level of trespass is a misdemeanor and larceny is either a misdemeanor or felony.

Leaving a car running unattended in a public lot is a violation of a City Ordinance. Want to guess why it was enacted? Because so many cars were being stolen, that's why.

Now, I'm done discussing this with you. I am not going to get into a debate about this just for the sake of arguing. You asked, I answered.

I'm done.

Best wishes to you Fred. I hope that you can enjoy this forum for the sake of bonsai, and find a way to live with differences of opinion without further physical ailment.

Sincerely,

John

P.S. You are NOT on my ignore list, and I will be happy to discuss any bonsai matter (except further on this thread) with you on this forum in a civil, polite manner. I only ask for the same courtesy.

Fred,

Thank you for the explanation(s). Personally, I have no qualms about collecting seed from a tree in a strip mall parking lot. I also do this regularly. However, seed collecting is not the same as TREE collecting. But, to be fair, I would never go into someone's yard and just start picking seed without permission...

As for the issues with the actual tree picking, I still believe that you should have obtained permission before digging. Do I feel that your "crimes" need reported to the local authorities? I'll let your own conscience decide that for you.

I do not think that you are a "bad" person for saying what you have said, or doing what you have done. I do think, however, that you need to offer the same amount of leniency that you seem to demand. Your statements in your first post seemed to say, "People treat me bad because of the way I think, and it ain't fair! Sooo...either think like me, or I will ignore you." This is just plain childish, and akin to a temper tantrum that my 13 year old likes to throw when she doesn't get her way.

You may not have meant for your initial post to come off like that, but it did. If you didn't, you shouldn't have continued to defend it when you were called on it. By doing so, you have alienated yourself from quite a few folks here. Please reconsider, and begin posting useful information again. It takes all kinds to make the world go 'round...

Regards,
John

Fred,

My mother collects "trees" for me from time to time. Being a mother she is convinced that she is helping me, for all the right reasons. She is lucky to live in the countryside, given the population density of our country. She will quite happily run her dogs across other people's property and dig up a tree or two. Then again, our laws are somewhat different to yours I imagine - we have such a thing as common land where the commoners have access and rights on the land - I am not so sure that you do though.

My mother's dogs chase wild deer - which in this country are the sole preserve of the Queen - tut, tut! Luckily they haven't caught one yet.

My mother has been caught speeding. Again, luckily, mother being a retired teacher, made sure that the young constable who was unfortunate enough to catch her commiting this atrocious act, was soon very sorry, and back in his fat leather Range Rover soon enough.

Is Mum a criminal?

Not as much as the idiot who keyed my motor last night.

Shades of grey perhaps. Or perhaps just different laws and regulations.

Stay around Fred. Your posts are usually interesting, even though I infrequently agree with you.

Regards,

Fish.