Amazing isn't it?


Reminds me of the story about the guy who walked into a bar swinging at everyone without cause and then tried to sue for medical expenses....


Will

Reminds me of the three legged dog who went into a bar
and said, " I want the man who shot my paw"

So long fredel, I didn't even get a kick in.

Mostly cuz Im not sure of the word paridime..uh paradigme....you know that p word. good luck in the grey world.

You know what? I'm all for kindness and patience. I do believe in trying to take "the high road." Most of the time, I try to do just that. Sometimes I don't.

But in my line of work, too often I see examples of the antagonist trying to pass as the victim.

A person says and does hurtful or provoking things and then cries foul when others respond in kind. If others try to avoid conflict with this person, s/he believes they are in agreement, and takes it as encouragement to continue poor behavior.

Codependency is not healthy. If a guy wants to leave, let him go.

Kick a guy when he is down? Maybe so. It seems to me more like a guy in a trap (that he laid for himself) chewing off his own leg. Pretty self-destructive if you ask me.

I apologise if I have offended anyone by my latest comments on this thread.

Fred,

It's good to hear that you have recovered from your problems.

Perhaps you can reconsider your second retirement from the forum and return - third time lucky perhaps? I think that you got off on the wrong foot somewhat with your very first welcome back post that seemed to go on the attack from the outset slightly.

Regards,

Fish.
PS While you were out I loaded up your car with some of your electrical equipment and re-distributed them to me. Being an "E" type myself, who sees these issues in a sort of grey zone just like you, I feel sure that you'll understand.
PPS Your clutch is sticking!

I don't know what you do for a living, but in my line of work as a pastor I see it too.



I don't think you owe anyone an apology. Nobody is begging Fred to stay. I'm certainly not, and I don't feel anyone who has posted on this thread should apologize either. I've been on bonsaiTALK for a couple of years at least, and I have been surprised at the uniformity of response to Fred's self-serving justification and isolation. Being part of a community means listening. He obviously wants to listen only to himself. It's too bad, because I have found some of his posts to be thought-provoking.

Craig Cowing

OK, thanks to probably unwitting encouragement from Attila and Fish, let me post one more comment on what the issue seems to have turned out to be.

I think that on a perfect forum (for me, at least) the responses I would have expected might be along the lines of, "OK, Fred, you've left me quite curious. I know you well enough to belive you to be a pretty honest guy. Unusually so, even. I find myself wondering how you could entertain the slightest doubt as to the principle of asking permission before removing trees from somebody else's property. I also have to admit to being a little shocked to have you admit to having done it on a public forum. Does this mean you advocate it? I, personally, can not imagine circumstances under which I would do such a thing, but maybe I just haven't had enough experience of life to do so. Have I understood you correctly? Could you comment on these questions?

Look, I'm not feeling hurt, angry, resentful or much of anything else about the comments I've recieved. It's just how some people think and I choose not to take it personally. I don't feel this puts me on a superior plane and I'm not trying to angrily retaliate in some sneaky passive-aggressive way. It's just that I've found that getting angry at people because of how they think just doesn't usually work out very well for me. As far as getting kicked when I'm down, I've always admired Attila's compassion and sense of humanity, but, really, I'm just fine. It's only words, after all. We did get to a point in the discussion where I was starting to feel, "Wow! This is truly going nowhere and I just don't have enough common ground with the folks leading the discussion for it to ever be very fruitful.". Now this doesn't mean I think you are bad people. It just means we think about things very differently. I'm sure that the folks that are getting so impassioned would make very good neighbors and we'd get along fine. I think they might be very surprized at what a good neighbor I am.

I do find the comments interesting about black and white vs shades of grey. That's a conversation I could really get into! As well as a number of other thoughts that have been expressed. Personally, I was a bit surprized that we got into such impassioned comments on a subject that I wasn't really intending to talk about. Surprized? Well, the problem is I REALLY don't think the way you do. And I'm constantly being misunderstood as a result. The people that DO think like I do, for the most part refrain from participating.

There was one other comment I'd like to say something about. The one concerning why the people that PM'd me don't rise to my defense in fair and open combat on the Forum. Well, that's exactly what they are trying to avoid: getting into heated arguments. I have no intention of engaging in angry arguments but find myself described as such things as "a ticking time bomb" and as a common thief. Well, look, I'm not mad at anybody because they've come to these conclusions, but, at the same time, I doubt that we're going to have a conversation that either of us profits much from. Which has me wondering whether those who refrain from joining the discussion know something I don't.

Peace, Fred

One flaw in this logic is that I, like many others here, do not know you at all.
And as much as I hate to break it to you, there are no perfect forums, groups, cars, houses, spouses, mouses, etc


No one thinks like anyone else does Fred, this is not unique, it is in fact common. There are a few rare individuals in the world who truly are on a different plane of thinking, you can find one sample in mental institutions and the other samples are what we would call geniuses, none post here.


My money would go on the fact that even halfway claiming that stealing is okay is not a thing to admit publically if you believe it. Another fact could be that they know that if you come looking for a fight, you usually find it. Best that those attitudes are kept to PM's.


Will

what is the point of this thread again? everything in this thread is so muddled...it's hard to follow...

muddle...muddle...muddle...muddle...muddle...muddl e...muddle...muddle...muddle...muddle...muddle...m uddle...muddle...muddle...muddle...muddle...muddle ...

Wow! I must be some kind of sick bastard. This thread is like a train wreck, but I just have to keep looking. Can't help myself. I should have known after FredL's very first post, that no good could come of this. I should have hit the back button and never returned (to this thread).

FredL, (I hope you're really gone this time, but just in case you're not): this forum is never going to be exactly what each of us wants/needs in our individual levels of bonsai experience. It is a free-for-all. We're going to get questions and replies that are annoying, useful, incorrect, revelations, over our heads, things we already know or anything in between. Get over it. If you want to start your own forum and be exclusive about the type of people you let participate - go for it! Spare us from hearing about all the things this forum ISN'T.

I could be wrong, but I think this forum is supposed to be about bonsai, not self-justification/ego feeding. I wonder how many bonsai talk "lurkers" have been turned off by this thread.

But like I said, I must be sick because I can't seem to look away!

Fred,

Now you've piqued my interest. Please tell us why you would choose to collect trees from other people's property without first obtaining permission. I would honestly like to know. Maybe the owner died heirless, and you felt justified in taking the material before it was demolished or auctioned for a salvage yard? Maybe you simply couldn't find anyone who owned the property, no matter how hard you looked?

Maybe I came across as harsh, but that was not my intention. As a law enforcement officer (well, actually I quit a few months ago, but I plan to return as soon as things cool down...), I tend to view violations of property and persons as serious offenses that cause other people, who are more often innocent than not, harm. Please explain why you would take someone else's property without asking.

Curious regards,
John L.