One more note on the collecting on private property. Up here in Vermont where there are few people...hey the whole state has under 700,000. You would think collecting would be easier......here is a true story.

My club had a collecting field they used to go to before I was a member....they had the permission of the farmer, one day one of the members asked the farmer permission to remove one of the rocks in a rock wall...it was flat useable etc....well someone saw the guy removing the rock from the wall....he thought it was OK to just go and retrieve rocks for his own use (this was just someone passing by) not only did he come back but told his friends and the farmer was outraged...he had to stop the collecting of everthing from his property.....

There is something to be learnered from this......

Fred is correct, we sometimes deal in black and white and do not allow for gray....but SOMETIMES there is only black and white.....perhaps we all should remember this!

From someone who is far far from being a MASTER, TEACHER, or even an advanced student
Jay

FredL, you apparently glory in isolating yourself, then telling yourself you are superior because of it.

Sandpaper? More like cactus spines. Long and barbed. Unpleasant.

Too bad you seem to feel that your superior position gives you the high ground in discussion, because there is then no point in the debate at all. Your world seems to be so full of tones of gray that you cannot distinguish either end of the spectrum. And then to act as if everyone else's outrage just proves your point......!

And to the people that are private messaging you, and agreeing....why don't they post in your defense? If they really believe that you are right, and that your views are justified, why don't they come on here and say so? I suspect that they know you are a ticking time bomb, and to publicly agree with you will mar them later. Because it is obvious that you are just looking for a fight.

And, one suspects, you will easily find it.

Joanie, who is looking for how to filter someone.....

Jay,

Your story shows exactly why it is important to seek permission. This individual who "thought" it was okay to remove more rocks should have "confirmed" it was okay. Instead, through arrogance, ignorance (or both), their action(s) ruined the activities of those who sought to do it correctly.

I find the term "black and white" very ironic here. Written permission would fall under that term too.

Once again, an example of how by-passing simple rules of etiquette and respect can cause tremendous loss to us all. Remember the "apathy" post a few months back?

Anyway, thanks for the synopsis of that event Jay. It really was relevant to the thread.

John

"As well as provide a vivid example of how I folks turn a disscusion into a debate."

Well, gee Fred, aren't you the self-satisfied, blameless victim of bonsai oppression...You wave a red flag, flaunt your inability to grasp basic human manners, call others names, and hint that breaking the law is acceptable (by the way, doing that on a public forum --in front a law enforcement officer no less --look at John Dixon's profile) and call us boorish and stoopid?

"A few months ago I would probably have reacted with anger similar to yours"

Uh, Denial isn't just a river in Africa. You are reacting with anger, only you've chosen to channel it passive agressively, instead of being honest with yourself. You seem to have far bigger problems. Your bonsai growing field seems to be a few trees short of a forest.

OK, I quit! It all comes back to me, now. Once again, discusion has morphed into disagreement which has quickly escalated into personal attacks.

I do not wish to reply in kind. I did this in the past and ended up feeling ashamed and embarrasaed. Best to leave the forum to the folks who feel comfortable with the culture here and wish to abide by its unspoken rules.

Best regards, Fred

Well, at least it ain't all my fault this time....



Will

Fred,

I realize that you probably did not mean to start a "war" on the aspects of collecting without permission, but that is what seems to have happened. As a result, I feel that I must agree with the others on this forum, as well as other forums that I visit, that doing this is immoral and illegal.

Speaking of illegalities, John Dixon is in NC, and has stated that it is illegal there. I am in Arkansas, and it is illegal here. I am sure that it is illegal in most states and countries, if not all of them. A person who is caught doing this in Arkansas would be charged with Criminal Trespass, Criminal Mischief, and Theft. As a matter of fact, I have actually charged a person for these offenses when he decided he liked his neighbors tulips and helped himself to some without permission. The kicker? The neighbor stated that he would have allowed the man to gather some bulbs in the fall if he had only asked. Instead, he helped himself to some of them in July, and endangered most of the bed. The thief recieved a suspended jail sentence, a hefty fine, and had to pay to have the tulip bed repaired.

I have no sympathy for anyone who steals. As for your other comments, I really have no idea what you are talking about, and, therefore, no animosity for them. Have a nice day!

Regards,
John L.

P.S. John D. is right...the statements you have made here CAN be used against you in a court of law. Remember...you have the right to remain silent! You also have the right to an attorney...perhaps you could talk to Pootsie?

See ya. Wouldn't wanna be ya.

(I know-I'm being immature...)

LOL! Have I told you lately that I love you?

Will

Hard to believe, but it's true.


Lets kick him (Fred) a couple more while he is down. He can't hurt us anyway...