heymikey,

Liar, liar, pants on fire!!!

You know it's from the Life cereal commercials. You are just afraid to "show" your true age. I've loved this avatar ever since you posted it. So how did you obtain it from the old "rabbit ear" days?

That was one of my favorite commercials.

John

Well, it has been interesting, albeit somewhat predictable to read the many replies I have received regarding my musings. Some people had very nice things to say and seemed to understand perfectly what I had to say. Particularly those who sent Private Messages. Others seemed baffled and reverted to making fun of my use of big words and concepts they were unfamiliar with. Others were sarcastic and personal. And a few were outraged, particularly about my irreverrence regarding the sanctity of private property.

It is to this last group that I would like to reply hereby:

You folks make a good point and I can understand how you feel. I, too, have been outraged when people have violated my territory. But, at the same time, there are other aspects to this issue that I find interesting.

Rather like the "Is Bonsai cruel to trees" issue.

I have collected trees on private property as well as public property without permission. I'd be happy to share my experience and the circumstances as well as why I believe it was the right thing to do but I'd rather not subject myself to the (self) righteous anger and indignation of participants who believe any miscreant doing such a thing needs to be subjected to another lecture about what an abominable act it is. As well as what a terrible person (s)he is. I'm not a terrible person and I don't do abominable things It provokes me when I'm told such things and I end up exposing the sand-papery side of my personality when I'm told I am and I do.

Now, this is a subject that I wouldn't mind exploring, but, obviously, BonsaiTalk is not the place to do it. The I people rule the roost on this subject. As on most. The idea that such a subject might have more than one aspect to it is outrageous to them. They feel entitled to lecture others on it and greet any departure from "The Truth" much as Inquisitors dealt with Religious Heretics during the Spanish Inquisition. The idea that an intelligent, thoughtful, generally decent person could defend, much less do such a thing is pretty much beyond their ability to comprehend. Their attitude is pretty much "Think like me or be wrong".

Well, it's hard for me to understand such people or their attitudes, but I'm making the effort to do so. Without condemnation or even judgement. I realize that to expect or even ask them to extend the same effort to me is asking too much. To do so would be in contradiction to their basic nature.

Which brings me back to the dilemma I faced when I left the Forum several months ago: it is simply unrealistic to expect the I folks to tolerate much less encourage people with any point of view other than the most obvious "conventional wisdom", i.e. their point of view. Perhaps their position is based on a sense of having their "personal territory" violated: I can't say as a person who has very little feeling of protection of "my" ideas and a sense of wonder about perceptions different from my own. What I seem to come down to is that the people who sent me Private Messages who otherwise don't participate seem to express the most wisdom in dealing with this issue. BonsaiTalk is simply not a place where I will ever recieve much satisfaction discussing topics in the mode I enjoy. It brings out the worst in me and continually disappoints me. Best to recognize it and move on. It's really not a place for Bonsai enthusiasts, but a place for "experts" to provide advice for "beginners".

As well as a place where folks spend their time either congratulating each other on the correctness of their views or argue over who's right.

Fred

"BonsaiTalk is simply not a place where I will ever recieve much satisfaction discussing topics in the mode I enjoy. It brings out the worst in me and continually disappoints me. Best to recognize it and move on. It's really not a place for Bonsai enthusiasts, but a place for "experts" to provide advice for "beginners"

Gee whiz, then why do you bother?

As for the no permission needed stuff, the impluse towards self-justification in gettting around common courtesy, or the law, has been around a very long time. The feelings of entitlement you have to private and public property are just plain selfish and self-indulgent. Asking permission is not abominable, it's common courtesy and the law to collect in either place. You're a clod if you don't extend common courtesy to your neighbors, you're a thief if you "ignore" the law because you know better than everyone else.

Fred,

For the life of me I can't figure out who you are trying to persuade on this issue. It sounds like you are trying to justify it to yourself.

To trespass and commit larceny (non-consent removal of property) are criminal offenses, plain and simple. Your post is prima facia evidence that you are thumbing your nose up at the law. You will not receive my blessing in that regard under any circumstances. You need to cease and desist.

I just collected two wisteria a 1/2 mile away from my house. I secured consent from the property owner (a company) before I did it. No big deal, but if I had not received that permission I would NOT have touched them. It is against the law, and no degree of rationalization can change that.

I do not mean any disrespect, but I will not associate with anyone who willingly flaunts the law. If you insist on keeping this standpoint, (if I am reading you correctly), I will add you as the first member on my ignore list.

And for the record, if you ever get charged with an offense concerning unapproved collecting, you just added some circumstantial evidence to the case. Whether reasonable doubt or preponderance of the evidence, the case just got easier. Think about that, please.

John

Rockm, thanks for the confirmation. I think you make a very good point regarding my future participation. I will think about it. As well as provide a vivid example of how I folks turn a disscusion into a debate. How interesting that you prejudge what I might have to say and react with such fury at any thoughts on the subject that might undermine your current paradigm.

As for myself, I think I'm actually making progress! A few months ago I would probably have reacted with anger similar to yours. Now I merely find our exchange an interesting confirmation of the accuracy of my new hypothesis on the dynamics of forum conversations. Gosh, perhaps it is possible after all that I can find a way to participate on BonsaiTalk and maintain my sanity.

You know, what intrigues me is how the way you think about things is so prevalent in the world. I find myself wondering whether it has survival value. Certainly, from what I have observed, E-People are alot more uncommon that I People, like yourself. Well, thanks for (unwittingly, I guess) giving me something really interesting to think about.

Oh, and another thing: I wonder if there could be a relationship between an extreme attatchment to private property and close-mindedness.

Hmmm.

Fred

Fred,
Sorry, but I have to agree with the others today. If you do not care about others personal property then you should post your address so that others can show you how it feels. No permission ='s theft, plan and simple.

I really hope you do not take this too personally but the law is the law. This can really give bonsaiists a bad name, we have enough of a bad rep due to the mallsai, we do not want to be viewed as theives as well .

This thread makes me sad. Have some common courtisy.

Newt

OK, guys, I'm giving up on this thread. Obviously I picked an example to try to make my point that has completely overshadowed the issue I wanted to talk about. Oh, well, I guess I've at least afforded several of you the opportunity to feel really good about yourselves. A small but valuable service.

I would like to say, however, that I am extremely careful when I am on my collecting trips to obey all traffic regulations. I do not speed, I come to complete stops at Stop signs and I always signal when changing lanes. Also, I never litter and I do not J walk when collecting seeds in an urban envirinment.

If there have been any infractions of these laws I'd appreciate hearing about them so that I, too, can indulge myself on the evils of criminal behavior. A moment of repair for my bruised and battered ego.

Fred

Fred, since I'm not getting through, then being more blunt won't hurt. This paradigm that you're talking about sounds like little more than self-justification.



I don't understand why you continue to stay on the forum if it bothers you that much.



This E-People/I-People thing is probably not intended to be a rigid model meant to encompass all of reality and human contacts. Give it up. It will only isolate you further.



Collecting trees on private property without permission is no different than walking into a store and helping yourself to products and walking out without paying for them. You wouldn't do that, would you?

Craig Cowing

Fred,

I genuinely hope that is true. A wise decision on your part.

With all sincerity,

John

HOORAY!

I'm glad you're feeling better, Fred, but your ridiculous self justification and attitiude of victimization are really quite irritating. Over 2000 words you've posted on a bonsai forum without once mentioning BONSAI!

Your paradigm issue is nothing more than a load of passive-aggressive nonsense. E-person, my gaping drainage hole! You are not open-minded, so quit pretending to be. And stop setting yourself up for exactly what you complain about.

I recommend a 12-step program. Seriously. Don't drink anymore.

pootsie