Well put and well said.

Will

Sorry to hear about your difficult times. I'm glad things are better. Spring always helps re-orient me, I find.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FredL I have always found these comments tiresome truisms that any fool understands and certainly not the immortal pearls of wisdom that those who offer them seem to wish to endow them with. There are several other endlessly repeated comments in the same catagory, such as the solemnly stated observation that you shouldn't collect trees on someone else's property without their permission. Now, I asked myself when I felt my familiar irritation with these comments, why on Earth would an otherwise apparently intelligent person make such inane and uninteresting commets? And, really for the first time, asked myself this in a genuine effort to understand it.

Well, not everyone understands, for instance, that it isn't ok to collect trees on other people's property. Some people seem to feel that if property is sitting unattended it's fair game. Somebody owns it, even if it's a corporation, a government entity, or a person living in another state. And the owner is liable for whatever happens on the property. And, some want the property left as it is. For example, my wife is going to be moving up here full time in the next month. We're going to be renting out the property she owns down there, and we've got stuff growing in the ground. We wouldn't want anyone coming onto the property and just helping themselves to anything growing there just because we're not there full time to keep people out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FredL I have sadly come to the conclusion that there are some people, perhaps many, that I just can't converse with and maintain my sanity. If I am to return to BonsaiTalk, it will be with the realization that I will probably have to use the function in operation that denies access to the threads I'm conversing on to people that make me crazy. It is not that I think they are bad people. Actually, I wish them well and apologize for my lack of flexibility and understanding in dealing with them.

I'd suggest posting less frequently if reading contrary ideas gets you that upset. There are many times that I don't jump into a discussion because it's going to get someone stirred up, and it isn't worth it. This is just a forum--it isn't life, although perhaps it is a microcosm of life.

To paraphrase what someone said in another post, don't fall into the trap of listening only to people who agree with you. I tend to be more like you in terms of being willing to explore ideas, etc. And, I've butted heads a few times on this forum. Some people have different outlooks and bring very different sets of baggage to any encounter they have with others. That's life.

Also, be wary of trying to see life and the world through one particular lens, whether it's the author that you mentioned, or any other lens. Life and the world doesn't fit into neat contrasting categories, the sort of "there are two kinds of people in the world" sorts of categories that people joke about. Having a rigid view (and I'm not suggesting that you're being rigid) makes life unnecessarily difficult.

Craig Cowing

Look, Will. with all due respect, I just don't think you're getting it.

You talk about agreeing and disagreeing, determining who's right, discovering that you were wrong. I do not like to think in that mode. In discussing things, my working hypothesis is that anybody that has a comment to make has got some understanding that is interesting and probably has some truth to it. The issue is not whether (s)he is right or wrong, but whether I can "get" what he's saying. Can I expand my understanding, not prove who's right and who's wrong. Generally, if I perceive myself in disagreement, I like to learn more about what the other person's experience or understanding has been. In most cases, we both end up learning more in a way that is far less painful than arguing it out.

Obviously, in the profession I pursued, this is a far more effective way to operate than in the mode of debating issues and proving who is wrong and who is right. I tend to seek out situations in which my paradigm works and avoid situations in which it is ineffective. Increasingly, I came to view BonsaiTalk as a situation in which my approach is ineffective. Well, I didn't articulate the problem in quite those terms, but, that's what it came down to.

I perceive it as rude and offensive to try to prove somebody wrong; in effect, try to force my opinion on them. When I fall into that mode, as I do when I am provoked, I end up with a very bad feeling about myself and a lot of animosity towards the other person. When, on the other hand, I find myself dealing with somebody who deals with differing perceptions the same way I do, I feel good about myself and alot of affection for the other person. In other words, "friendship" develops.

Now the point that I don't think you're getting is that what I'm saying is that I do not like conversation to be about agreeing and disagreeing. I do not like to look at life and conversation in those terms. I've tried to express my way of dealing with differing perceptions in terms of "let's explore this subject in an effort to get closer to the truth" rather than "let's argue about this and determine who's right". I'm very comfortable with discussing a subject without any real effort to come to closure. I know alot of people aren't. My friends do not try to prove themselves right at my expense; I refrain from trying to force my opinions on them.

Now, I'm not saying that the way I think is the only right way. It is the right way - or at least used to be - the right way to develop computer systems. It may not have been the right way to practice medicine or teach university classes; I can not say. It is the right way for me to practice bonsai or converse about it. It apparently is not for you. To which I say, "God bless. You have every right to be as argumentative as you wish and to choose friends that feel the same way. Given the way I'm put together, I prefer not to be drawn into it".

My experience does not indicate to me that, as a result, I must go through life friendless and alone. It does mean that I prefer to handle what you term "disagreement" with tact and consideration.

Fred

Okay anyhow, since we are not growing paradigms and I wouldn't know how to prune one anyway....how are those plums of yours doing?


Will

Well Fred,
Feelings are feelings... None are right and none are wrong.. They just are. You know what you are and how you feel, and of course you are the worlds foremost authority on FredL. No one can know you better than you. If you have found a way of interacting with others that is fulfilling to you (and it seems as though you have) all the more power to you.
Be well my friend
Glad you are posting again!
Adam

Fred,

I remember an adage about three Chinese men who were playing a game, and were told the world was about to end. They remarked about how they would use the time.

Two chose to use their last hours to do other activities, but one just simply said, " I shall finish the game".

Regardless of differences, we need to be more like that. Finish the game, Fred. That's what matters.

I'm glad you are getting better,

John

Fred,

I for one am pretty sure i get exactly what you're saying, and i just want to say...

this is so exactly right on...

welcome back, future friend.

have a great day,

toby

Edit: I think it's really great that someone could give me negative rep points for this post without so much as a comment. same goes for my purely aesthetic opinion on a tree of the day last week. real class, and such a splendid use of the rep point system. thanks.

Fred, I may not have always seen your point but one thing is for sure. I hope your string of misfortune has come to an end. It sounds like you had a bad period...and hopefully it is behind you.

This forum is made up of many individuals with differing ideas....some you may or may not enjoy, but you know that. As has been said in an earlier post stay away from what you do not like....If this Forum can not be enjoyable and educational it is not the place for you.

my two cents
Jay

Fred, I think the model needs tweaking: you were the victim of pancreatis. You are an active participant in a paradigm clash.

Regards,

Matt

First and most importantly, FredL I'm glad things are going your way again and I hope they continue to improve.

I don't know why I'm so drawn to reply to this thread. I've found myself completely agreeing (physically nodding my head and talking to my monitor) with Fred in the past and I've also found myself pulling back very hard from what (to me) was a very unnecessarily abrasive comment, made by the same Fred.

I have found both of those same qualities in these new posts and yet I do truly feel that these posts have helped me to find out more about me and that makes reading them worthwhile (for me).

I guess from your message that we'll not be friends because it seems that just when I'm being drawn in and thinking that I get what you're saying, I feel that coarse grit mental sandpaper and I pull away again. I don't know why that is, but I will certainly not stop reading your posts because of it. I have gleaned information from you in the past and I hope to continue to do so in the future.

Wishing all who read this well,
JP