It has been quite awhile since I last looked at Bonsaitalk, much less contributed to it. It has not been a particularly happy several months, what with a serious bought of Pancreatitis, an investment crisis, a major operation for a double hernia and treatment for depression but I have weathered it all and feel quite good at this point with it all well behind me. Life, once again, is good!

During all this time, I spent some time reflecting on how I had gotten so upset in some of my conversations on BonsaiTalk. One thing I concluded was that I was giving Bonsai in general and BonsaiTalk in particular a lot more importance than they deserved. But, I also gained an insight and came to some conclusions that were much more important, at least to me, than this one. I came to this realization after reading one of the comments that I have seen repeated so many times on the impotance of providing beginners with sound advice (mine) and the potential harm that giving bad advice (yours) may do.

I have always found these comments tiresome truisms that any fool understands and certainly not the immortal pearls of wisdom that those who offer them seem to wish to endow them with. There are several other endlessly repeated comments in the same catagory, such as the solemnly stated observation that you shouldn't collect trees on someone else's property without their permission.

Now, I asked myself when I felt my familiar irritation with these comments, why on Earth would an otherwise apparently intelligent person make such inane and uninteresting commets? And, really for the first time, asked myself this in a genuine effort to understand it.

What happened surprized me. For the first time, I was able to see what was happening in a very different light than simply egotism running wild.

As many of you are aware, reading Peter Senge and his books on management theory was a real consciouness expander for me. His concept of "Mental Models" and their relationhip to paradigms changed my understanding of how peole think, myself included. What I came to realize, in applying his ideas to my experience on BonsaiTalk was that I had been a victim of "Paradigm Clash".

Allow me to explain.

I now believe that the people who I had clashed so seriously with are operating out of an "Insructor to Student" paradigm. I operate, at least for the most part, out of an "Explore the Subject" paradigm. Lets's call us "I People" and "E People". Both of us seek opportunities to capitalize on our strengths and minmize the weaknesses inherent in our operative paradigms. I, for example, spent my career working with an emerging technolgy in which there was little in the way of past experience to apply to the issues that we faced daily and the impotance of groups working well togethere was paramount. At least one of my detractors is a college professor. The requirements for success in his field are quite different. Both of us also filter our experince to validate the value of our paradigms and can provide numerous examples of how our paradigm is the right one to approach life with. Certainly, how we approach Bonsai and and how we communicate about it reflect these very different styles.

As a typical "E Person", I love to listen to off beat ideas and try to understand what truth is contained in them. For me, very few ideas are completely wrong and completely devoid of any truth or value. Even fewer are completely correct. I love questions much more than answers. And I am very careful to avoid disrediting anybody because he or she has expressed a thought that can be questioned. And react violently when I feel I am being attacked personally because of the ideas I have expressed. I remember a debate awhile back on whether Bonsai is Cruel to Trees. I was rather offended when many people on BonsaiTalk took the position that this was a truly assanine idea and that anybody expressing it must be in idiot. I thought it was an intriguing idea, though quite counter-intuitive, at least for me, and I was interested in finding out how its author had come to such an unusual conclusion. I actually had some rather intereting ideas concerning the nature of consciousness and awareness and the relationship between them come out of discussing it.

This point of view is, I realize, pretty hard for "I People" to understand. The relationship they seem to want to establish with me and others is "Student to Teacher" and I am very resistant to this. Pretty soon, it gets personal and missunderstanding soon escalates to personal quarrel. I can see why faculty politics is generally regarded as the most bitter form of politics in existance; it's all about who is right and personal credibility by groups of people who are very bright and have their professional lives at stake.

I have sadly come to the conclusion that there are some people, perhaps many, that I just can't converse with and maintain my sanity. If I am to return to BonsaiTalk, it will be with the realization that I will probably have to use the function in operation that denies access to the threads I'm conversing on to people that make me crazy. It is not that I think they are bad people. Actually, I wish them well and apologize for my lack of flexibility and understanding in dealing with them.

Hope that a few of you, at least, have found these musings interesting.

And I now return you from talking about talking about Bonsai to talking about Bonsai!

Fred

Hi Fred! Wow! You've been through alot! Welcome back! I try to get my much need tranquility fix from bonsai on a daily basis and it works for me! Hope you find yours and I'll be looking for your future posts... Lesley

Fred, it has been awhile, I haven't heard from you on this forum since your boredom thread. Although I have seen you post as the Wabi Guy on other forums.

I personally think you read way to much into things and often take offense where none was meant. As far as your above stated philosophy goes, I have found that not everyone will agree with everyone else, that some people will talk above their own knowledge and capabilities, some will talk below it, that some will give bad advice, and that others will be there to call a spade a spade. This is the nature of the world both on and off line. Group them anyway you want to, categorize them, sort them, classify them, it all boils down to one single group, Humans.

As for myself, I am a student who isn't afraid to tell the teacher when he forgets to wear pants.

Welcome back,


Will Heath

Glad to see you are doing well Fred. Personally, I am an "F" person.

I'm glad you've made it through all of those hard times, Fred.



You certainly know how to come back and win friends right from the get-go, though, don't you?

Immortal pearls of wisdom, of course not. Necessary reminders? Sadly, yes.

Best regards,
Carl

Yeeeh, Fred is back, and with a new book (1,400 words)!


It's really nice to see you back, Fred.
Attila

Carl, I am not trying to win friends, merely speak the truth as I see it. I do not expect you, specifically, to like me. I do not blame you for that and I have tried to make it clear why not. It saddens me to realize that it is unlikely that we will ever be friends because the ways we think are so incompatable. There are those who will read what I have written and think, "This is so exactly 'right on'.". These people will be my friends.

I could go on and on, trying to explain myself in an effort to get you to understand me. Wouldn't work. Paradigms, for the most part, are incredibly resistant to change. Mine as well as yours. Best for me merely to wish you well and say, "Go in peace".

Fred

Sorry, couldn't let this go by....are you saying that only people who agree with you will be your friends? Come on Fred, I have many friends who don't agree with me all the time, to limit myself like that would be asinine. In fact, a few friends I have made here became friends only after many posts of debates and disagreements. And boy have I been wrong before, lol.

Believe it or not, I have nothing personally against you and I disagree with you most of the time. In fact, when you left the last time you blamed all your troubles on me and I still did not hold it against you. If I only counted those who agree with me as friends, I would be a lonely man Fred.

My friends are those who will tell me when I'm wrong, who will hold me to a higher standard, who will pick me up after they knocked me down, these are true friends Fred. Beware those who will only agree with you.

Will

Those ARE true friends! Great way to vocalize it!
You can't agree with everyone all the time.. If you did no one would be an individual...

Adam

PS. Welcome back Fred! Glad to see you here again!

Do I care whether people agree with me? An important question, especially on forums like this.

I came to believe that what I believe is totally insignificant in the grand scheme of things. The world couldn't care less. And expecting the world to agree with me is a little.... too much to ask, I believe. And we can safely assume that the interned IS the world.

What I CAN control and take pride of, is to be able to articulate the reasoning behind my opinions. And to have the courage to face myself if I am wrong.